Systems that attempt to exploit unhit numbers, such as the KTF, on live wheels are a bad idea for the following reasons:
1. Defective wheels. Betting on unhit numbers increases the chance that you could be betting on negatively biased numbers. Such numbers hit less frequently than they should for physical reasons. This means that the player could lose not just at the house edge, but at a rate that could theoretically exceed the house edge. If anyone would like proof of such a wheels, then drop me a PM. I would be happy to provide you with the data.
2. Numbers are never due to hit or catch up, since the number of pockets remain the same on the wheel from one spin to the next.
3. The up as you lose progressions associated with such systems limits the player to a paltry win, since the initial bet must be so low. The bankroll fluctuations could be larger than expected because the player is chasing their losses on potentially hazardous bets. Mathematically an up as you lose progression makes no sense.
The better option is to bet on the numbers that have hit the most and or most recently.
1. Attempting to bet on the hottest numbers increases the chance that the player will exploit some inefficiency in the actual wheel in the forum of a bias/defect. This is where the player can actually make money and get the edge...by exploiting inefficiencies in the wheel.
2. This slightly reduces the chance of the player betting on a negatively biased number and ever so slightly increases the chance that the player could be wagering on a biased number. The more data the player collects before wagering, the better the odds are of getting the advantage.
3. The player should reduce the number of numbers bet down to just one and no more than ten numbers. The more numbers the player bets on, the greater the odds are that they will be betting on a random goat or worse yet, a negatively biased number. If only one or two of the numbers is biased, but the others are random goats, then the random numbers or negatively biased numbers may wipe out the edge of the biased numbers. In roulette, less is more. Bet on fewer numbers.
4. The player should wager a percentage of their bankroll at each spin, rather than running an up as you lose progression. In the event that the player is lucky or is wagering on biased numbers, the wins will on average be much larger than the paultry wins that are achieved with an "up as you lose progression." The player's initial bet can also be much larger, increasing the chance of a large win.
5. Ignatus has recently come up with some clever quick play methods that chase hot numbers. Most of his hot number methods are vastly superior to the unhit number systems like the KTF.
Good luck,
The General
100% agree if and only if it's some bias . But those wheels .... are they still exists? I ask coz I've been doing a looooot of tracking and after 1000-2000 spins they all come nicely in balance. :o
First off, you need to separate by spin direction.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:30 PM 2016
First off, you need to separate by spin direction.
Ok. Can you give some more advice pls ? I'm all ears and willing to learn and listen.
The Law too can help us with some ideas?
.
Thanks General ✠good one :thumbsup: ✰ ✰ ✰
General - aside from the "bias wheel" part, you said exactly what I did a while ago
but most people wanted to argue.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 2016Attempting to bet on the hottest numbers increases the chance that the player will exploit some inefficiency in the actual wheel in the forum of a bias/defect. This is where the player can actually make money and get the edge...by exploiting inefficiencies in the wheel.
I dare to say that it doesn't even require a biased wheel. Any perfect wheel spitting out random numbers will produce numbers that hit well above 1 std and the right (cough) method will exploit this.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 2016The more data the player collects before wagering, the better the odds are of getting the advantage.
True - but in the systems world, betting every spin without waiting can do the same thing. Aside from a defective wheel, someone playing a system should never sit out spins and record "past" data.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 2016The player should reduce the number of numbers bet down to just one and no more than ten numbers.
Bingo ! for system players as well when using something that will work (coughs again)
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 2016The player should wager a percentage of their bankroll at each spin, rather than running an up as you lose progression.
I prefer a set-in-stone progression on the numbers that I play, up as you win style. Never "up as you lose".
===
I said in another thread that Bias wheel people and system people could both agree and end up playing the same
numbers on the table and BOTH sides can win together, but it wasn't met with much enthusiasm lol. It is however true.
Many of the things that "random" spits out can be used to the player's advantage in the same way that a bias wheel can do for the bias wheel players.
Side by side - given time - we (you and I) would be on the same numbers and both winning - but due to different paths in getting there.
link:://:.GF/threads/cs-system.2840/
Buried back 11 pages of course.
"What we would agree on - is that the 'common sense' way to play is also the same way
that most advantage players would play - meaning - we will both end up playing the same
numbers - for different reasons but to the same end of success."
I would offer that the chart in my signature shows that the bugs have been "worked out" from the second chart on that thread (even though that was fine and acceptable to begin with)
Quote from: TurboGenius on May 03, 02:01 PM 2016
I dare to say that it doesn't even require a biased wheel. Any perfect wheel spitting out random numbers will produce numbers that hit well above 1 std and the right (cough) method will exploit this.
And how would you find them ? :)
Unfortunately, one standard deviation is just a fluctuation. A random bob. The standard deviation of a biased number will continue to grow as the spin sample grows larger and larger. (It won't go straight up, it will move up and down slightly, but the over all trend will be upward.)
The main point I wanted to try and make was to avoid unhit number systems and focus more on hot number or biased number methods.
Nice post Caleb
I lean towards Turbo in the sense that the wheel will produce numbers which hit higher than average even if "Mr Wheel balance", (renowned professor of wheel balancing) has spent 2 days balancing the wheel.
I play very much in this way you describe. Finding numbers which hit above average as I go along, and removing them as they fade.
I also play over cycles. If the tables busy, I play splits over 18 cycles. I only usually play in a dozen or a column. Cant bet everything. Cant reach everywhere on the table when its full. I usually have 1 or 2 splits by the 3rd cycle.
I only add a chip to numbers that are hitting above average. I dont ever use neg progression.
even if its not the perfect way to play, it works for me. Its a nice relaxed way to play.
It cant be too complex for me because I do like to watch the taxi drivers building scale models of NYC on the carpet and loosing their shirt.
Quote from: denzie on May 03, 02:12 PM 2016
And how would you find them ? :)
Wish we can before it hits.
We can't. And there's where up as you win helps where you keep increasing the bets in the hope that you will catch that. But it is no different from random play of hot/ warm/repeating whatever you want to call numbers.
Quote from: Turner on May 03, 02:22 PM 2016I do like to watch the taxi drivers building scale models of NYC on the carpet and loosing their shirt.
That's a nice one.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 02:21 PM 2016The main point I wanted to try and make was to avoid unhit number systems and focus more on hot number or biased number methods.
Now if people listen. lol
Quote from: Turner on May 03, 02:22 PM 2016I lean towards Turbo in the sense that the wheel will produce numbers which hit higher than average even if "Mr Wheel balance", (renowned professor of wheel balancing) has spent 2 days balancing the wheel.
Exactly. As a matter of fact - on that same forum I tested and posted how 38 people can go into a casino and play their own specific number (american 0/00 wheel) and 13 of them will leave in profit - Flat Betting ! - after 1,000 spins !!
This is buried back on the 13th page lol.
And people will say "How do I know what number(s) are going to be the ones that will make money and what numbers won't ?"
Could it be the ones that don't show up ? The sleepers ? The "due" numbers ? No........... simple, yet so hard for people to understand.
Any system based on "not playing"/virtual spins, waiting for some "trigger", looking at "past spins" fails and always will. Same goes for changing tables, casinos, voodoo or luck, you name it.
Quote from: Priyanka on May 03, 02:26 PM 2016I do like to watch the taxi drivers building scale models of NYC on the carpet and loosing their shirt.
That's a nice one.
You know the bobby
Quote from: curiosone on May 03, 01:41 PM 2016
The Law too can help us with some ideas?
Sorry!! i mean MR J
Turbo - what's your profit per spin? Looking to compare notes.
There's too many variables there, I might be on 7 or 8 (or more, or less) numbers with different amounts on each.
I'm looking for a specific profit ($) per session as my goal - not so much how each spin does.
Quote from: TurboGenius on May 03, 03:52 PM 2016
There's too many variables there, I might be on 7 or 8 (or more, or less) numbers with different amounts on each.
I'm looking for a specific profit ($) per session as my goal - not so much how each spin does.
Ok, thanks.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 20165. Ignatus has recently come up with some clever quick play methods that chase hot numbers. Most of his hot number methods are vastly superior to the unhit number systems like the KTF.
-General (Caleb)
Which one of Ignatus hot number methods would you recommend looking at.
You know that I am a great fan of KTF and right now I still only play WTF Repeats because of betting time limitations at my B&M to play KTF but I really would like an answer to my question and I will take a serious look at it/them, compared to KTF.
-Celtic
Quote from: The General on May 03, 01:18 PM 2016The better option is to bet on the numbers that have hit the most and or most recently.
Re: Multiplayer roulette ready
« Reply #423 on: May 01, 2016, 10:07:56 PM »
Quote (selected)
Pretty sure I've never seen this in live play
The same number 5 times in 18 spins
So how long does one stand looking at the wheel going round, 1 hour, 1/2 a day, the whole day geez.
I'll do it my way thanks, and on the mickey mouse roulette.
Since looking into the KTF system (personally I think this method would be most efficient for watching when to bet eg: after 2 or 3 repeats start to bet)
I am testing an idea where I watch until 10 unique numbers show and then on the 11th spin I bet those 10 numbers, if I miss I add the new hit number to the bet, so on the 12th spin I'm betting 11numbers and so forth. Adding 1unit for each lose and decreasing 1unit for each win. It seems to work well but I am trying to figure out the best times to bet, progression method etc
I have played roulette for roughly 5years the best win (12.4k) I was playing 7 numbers
12,15,18,21,24,27,30
I used to watch for 10 spins with out one of these numbers showing and then start my bet adding 1unit for each lose.
Got upto 2.5k got greedy and luckily landed 18 with 100 on and it then doubled with 150 on. Since then my luck with roulette has been none existent. So I would very much like to find a system which turns roulette into a healthy income.
Surely there must be a way we can monitor a certain set of number were none shows can prompt our betting? I've seen something to do with multiples which I will attach to this comment.
Roulette is day light robbery if not played with patience and skill I think its about time a few brains come together and mathematically use 'randomness' to defeat roulette
Not sure that biased wheels exist in any number to actually be a practical method of play long-term.
If so, then any inefficiencies could be exploited by a basic progression.........an imbalance is an imbalance.
There were a ton of books written about biased wheels as far back as the 1960s, but the idea went out of fashion after casinos started switching/balancing wheels. I remember reading about entire corporations that were set up just to have a full-time staff to track all available wheels.
Feels like we're talking about Card-Counting single deck Blackjack here...........it exists.....but not for practical play. :thumbsup:
QuoteNot sure that biased wheels exist in any number to actually be a practical method of play long-term.
Guess again. My team and I set the record for the most won in one setting in North America back in 2010 smack in the middle of the LV strip. The wheel was less than five years old.
Here's something that you won't read in books. It's not balancing. It's not so much wear and tear that makes a wheel bias, it's often just piss poor assembly.
Quote from: The General on May 03, 10:57 PM 2016
Guess again. My team and I set the record for the most won in one setting in North America back in 2010 smack in the middle of the LV strip. The wheel was less than five years old.
Here's something that you won't read in books. It's not balancing. It's not so much wear and tear that makes a wheel bias, it's often just piss poor assembly.
Wow!!!
There's a record of all roulette winnings in LV for each year? Where can we find this info? Does Steve know about this? :question:
.......and you say there was 1 table..........back in 2010? :ooh:
Quick!!!............everyone to LV immediately!!!............wait..........which table is it..........which table General??? :sad2:
The Law,
Here's a map for ya so you can locate the table and win even more using somethin even more fancy like the reverse labby. Heck, with somethin like the reverse labby you could own the strip. Beware of them twins at the gates though, they'll try and fool ya. They may even try and tell you that your system dont work, but dont believe themz.
Good luck!
And if you start losing, just double up or play random numbers against random. That always works with the reverse labby.
By the way, be sure to use the Ws and Ls so that you can make your trackin sheet and know exactly whem themz wins are a comin. ;)
(link:://cdn-:.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/caesars_map.jpg)
Quote from: The General on May 04, 12:05 PM 2016
The Law,
Here's a map for ya so you can locate the table and win even more using somethin even more fancy like the reverse labby. Heck, with somethin like the reverse labby you could own the strip. Beware of them twins at the gates though, they'll try and fool ya. They may even try and tell you that your system dont work, but dont believe themz.
Good luck!
And if you start losing, just double up or play random numbers against random. That always works with the reverse labby.
By the way, be sure to use the Ws and Ls so that you can make your trackin sheet and know exactly whem themz wins are a comin. ;)
(link:://cdn-:.cracked.com/articleimages/ob/caesars_map.jpg)
Wait a minute........now the only biased wheel in LV from 2010 doesn't even exist.............General...........you're killing me here!!! :sad2:
Caleb
Just interested.
It seems to me you would have to collect a fair few spins to work out if a wheel was biased.
It also seems to me that the Weisbaden casinos make every spin available for public viewing. Millions of spins.
With all that info, have you ever tried to find a biased wheel at Bremen or hohensyburg?
They must know they leave themselves open to scrutiny. Do they swap the wheels around?
Im sure you already thought about this.
Turner at least our U-21's ended up champions. :thumbsup:
Quote from: nottophammer on May 04, 05:50 PM 2016Turner at least our U-21's ended up champions.
The whole Champions league journey wasnt an embarrassment, even tonight. Pep will move us on with the help of billions of arab wonga.
But....I still have Ian Bishop and Trevor Morley, Bernabia, Berkovic, The Goat, Dickovs goal at wembley against Gillingham in my heart.
Do I miss the hungry years? Hmmmmmm........theres a question
Quote from: Turner on May 04, 06:06 PM 2016
Pep will move us on with the help of billions of arab wonga.
Lot of optimism there. Am sure the next number to hit is 11, 14 or 36.
Love the casino map. Good to avoid Celine.
QuoteCaleb
Just interested.
It seems to me you would have to collect a fair few spins to work out if a wheel was biased.
Actually, I usually don't have to collect any spins to determine if a wheel is biased. Most of the time, I can spot a biased wheel on sight, and within minutes. Initially, I can even make some crude predictions on where the bias will be located. However, I usually have to have a great deal of tracking in order to determine on which numbers to bet. Some defects/assembly problems are very obvious. Other's are almost invisible and require more careful observation.
QuoteWait a minute........now the only biased wheel in LV from 2010 doesn't even exist.............General...........you're killing me here!!!-The Law
The Law,
Why do you believe that there's only one?
Sorry, but I won't be providing you with a current treasure map. Besides, some people are better off playing something a bit simpler, like a system. ;)
Quote from: The General on May 04, 10:33 PM 2016
The Law,
Why do you believe that there's only one?
Sorry, but I won't be providing you with a current treasure map. Besides, some people are better off playing something a bit simpler, like a system. ;)
I didn't know that Roulette had fantasy leagues...........learn something new everyday! :thumbsup:
Roulette in some ways is like Forex. The main difference is that some of us can actually make money playing the wheel. ;)
Quote from: The General on May 04, 11:07 PM 2016
Roulette in some ways is like Forex. The main difference is that some of us can actually make money playing the wheel. ;)
I believe the appropriate phrase is "All hat........no cattle". :thumbsup:
(link:://growingleaders.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/my-brain-is-full.jpg)
You're dismised. :thumbsup:
General,
Back to the topic at hand.......
"Actually, I usually don't have to collect any spins to determine if a wheel is biased. Most of the time, I can spot a biased wheel on sight, and within minutes. Initially, I can even make some crude predictions on where the bias will be located. However, I usually have to have a great deal of tracking in order to determine on which numbers to bet. Some defects/assembly problems are very obvious. Other's are almost invisible and require more careful observation."-the General
Any actual specifics about how to execute this.........or just........trust you? :question:
Now is probably a good time to tell you that I have a method to spot a biased wheel before seeing one single spin............used it to win millions a few years back..........highest winning payout on a Tuesday ever at the Bellagio...........on a triple-zero table...........it.........was........amazing!!!
I'm done with you now General. At this point, everyone paying attention has seen what game your playing.
Best of luck............wait..........you don't need it........right? :question:
The Law,
Some people are better off with systems. :thumbsup:
Best of luck.
Quote"Actually, I usually don't have to collect any spins to determine if a wheel is biased. Most of the time, I can spot a biased wheel on sight, and within minutes. Initially, I can even make some crude predictions on where the bias will be located. However, I usually have to have a great deal of tracking in order to determine on which numbers to bet. Some defects/assembly problems are very obvious. Other's are almost invisible and require more careful observation."-the General
The Law,
I have great deal of experience with the wheels. I own them, take them apart, reassembly them, test them, film them, etc. In short I use light reflection movements to spot specific problems related to assembly or wear that tend to cause bias. I will sometimes also use some short term data collection such as coefficient of restitution testing in order to spot loose lobes in the wheel. It's so that I can determine which wheels to track, and which wheels to ignore.
I have no interest in teaching anyone how to do it, because it's a bit complex, and I'm too lazy to teach someone. Besides, even if I were to explain it, chances are you couldn't do it anyway. It would be like handing someone a basket ball and instantly expecting them to be able to shoot three pointers.
Some people are better of sticking with hot number systems. Ignatus has some fun systems. You should also check out the reverse labby. It's very simply and it's easy to comprehend, likely a better fit for you. :thumbsup:
There are also some good books out there on the game and some great websites, such as the wizardofodds.com, where you can learn some of the basic math behind the game
Best of luck,
The General.
Quote from: The General on May 05, 02:26 PM 2016
The Law,
I have great deal of experience with the wheels. I own them, take them apart, reassembly them, test them, film them, etc. In short I use light reflection movements to spot specific problems related to assembly or wear that tend to cause bias. I will sometimes also use some short term data collection such as coefficient of restitution testing in order to spot loose lobes in the wheel. It's so that I can determine which wheels to track, and which wheels to ignore.
I have no interest in teaching anyone how to do it, because it's a bit complex, and I'm too lazy to teach someone. Besides, even if I were to explain it, chances are you couldn't do it anyway. It would be like handing someone a basket ball and instantly expecting them to be able to shoot three pointers.
Some people are better of sticking with hot number systems. Ignatus has some fun systems. You should also check out the reverse labby. It's very simply and it's easy to comprehend, likely a better fit for you. :thumbsup:
There are also some good books out there on the game and some great websites, such as the wizardofodds.com, where you can learn some of the basic math behind the game
Best of luck,
The General.
Sorry General.......I just can't resist.
You wrote :
"I have no interest in teaching anyone how to do it, because it's a bit complex, and I'm too lazy to teach someone. Besides, even if I were to explain it, chances are you couldn't do it anyway. It would be like handing someone a basket ball and instantly expecting them to be able to shoot three pointers."
So your logic here is........individuals (me in this instance) can't be taught to shoot 3-pointers..............because it's way too complex. :lol:
On second thought General.............I think I'll look for some accurate Roulette info elsewhere. Your apparent ignorance of basic logic does not inspire confidence.
Man......if this is how a General thinks...........imagine a Colonel :ooh:
QuoteSo your logic here is........individuals (me in this instance) can't be taught to shoot 3-pointers..............because it's way too complex. :lol:
Sorry, but yep, that's my logic, and for some obvious reasons. :thumbsup:
(link:://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2013/03/22/less-is-moo-the-genius-of-gary-larson/jcr:content/image.img.2000.png/1363976387133.cached.png)
Quote from: The General on May 05, 03:01 PM 2016
Sorry, but yep, that's my logic, and for some obvious reasons. :thumbsup:
(link:://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2013/03/22/less-is-moo-the-genius-of-gary-larson/jcr:content/image.img.2000.png/1363976387133.cached.png)
See......now this is honest. :thumbsup:
So you don't have any experience or evidence to back up your claims.........but instead of trying to bs your way through......you just go for a simple personal attack.
Effective and efficient!Best of luck General. I would love to stay and chat, but if you're stooping to name-calling.......well........it's a bit pedestrian.
If you can conjure up something more creative..........I'm all ears.
Cheers! :thumbsup:
QuoteEffective and efficient!
Hey, I've got to be me as it appears that you've chosen to be you. :thumbsup: