Ways for USA players to bet online

[TwoCatSam]

It is probably true that we will never get on line, as such.  But Victor is right.  A buddy in Elbonia can always set us up an account.

Sam

[albalaha]

Dear Victor,
           People from Venezuela and US are not sole victim of these laws and policies. I am from India, the 2nd biggest nation in the world in population and 5th largest economy of the world. There is no clear law on online gambling here but many big casino operators like Realtime Gaming and few others have banned us from playing online. Like US, we have a federal structure and two of the States of India have land based casino and one of them is developing online casino with the help of betfair. In India all forms of gambling and betting is considered illegal, but we can play in land based casinos. Further, international credit card transactions have been banned by Government of India. It has become very much problematic to deposit and withdraw from casinos. I am telling you, I am a very successful player of both forms of roulette RNG and Live but due to these problems I do not play with big sums. I can deposit in Neteller with local bank deposits but can't withdraw that way. Isn't is ridiculous?

[ThomasGrant]

TwoCat is in here.
Was wondering where he got to.

That cat has more than nine lives.

[CelticCasino]

I love topics like this.  I STRONGLY feel that US residents should have the right to gamble online.  Afterall, they allow horse races, dog races, and lottery, why not casinos? If is was an ethical problem then they would not allow ANY type of online gambling.  So, I believe the problem is "greed" over "ethics".  Special interests are blocking competition by not allowing online gambling.  Greed, just simple greed.  

Now, I've read the posts, and I think that some of the suggestions may work.  From a legal standpoint I can not recommend it from an operator's perspective.  Celtic Casino sincerely does not allow US players, not even secretly at this time.  This thread is not about us, so I'll stick to the topic of US players.

Let's say you have the IP redirect down and the deposits.  How will you claim your winnings? There's a lot of player verification protocols established to make sure the person who signed up is the actual player.  This protects the player and cardholder.

I think each US resident should make up their own mind (I'm not morally against it of course), but if you can't be sure to get your winnings then the fun is kind of gone isn't it?

I so like the way you guys think though.  You are very resourceful.

[VLS]

I STRONGLY feel that US residents should have the right to gamble online.  Afterall, they allow horse races, dog races, and lottery, why not casinos? If is was an ethical problem then they would not allow ANY type of online gambling.  So, I believe the problem is "greed" over "ethics".  Special interests are blocking competition by not allowing online gambling.  Greed, just simple greed.

Very well said, the reason is obvious: if people stay at home betting online, they are not going out to the racetracks and local casinos. Loss of business to them, nothing to do with morals.

Now, I've read the posts, and I think that some of the suggestions may work.

They do work! Some even have remotely-operated clickers to overcome the lag on slow connections derived from broadcasting the casino's ever-refreshing game screen live.

A simple data package with an ASCII string containing: "7,12,19,28,32,36", travels very fast. It reaches the receiving socket in a snap for the local clicker program to hit those numbers before the betting time runs out.

Let's say you have the IP redirect down and the deposits.  How will you claim your winnings?

The operator doesn't have to know about the identity of the US-based player at all.

This is a player-to-player affair.

Say I register from Venezuela, you get my IP playing there, I win, collect my gains and then wire the winnings to TwoCatSam in Oklahoma (minus my cut). How is the operator ever going to know about it?

No USA IP, No USA data at all. As far as the operator concerns they are dealing (and paying to) a non-USA person.

What the receiving end can make with the money after arrival is up to him/her. That's the beauty of the scheme.

Nobody gets hurt. The online casino gets the player's business and the USA-player wagers online with the largest risk being the offshore person's sincerity at the time of paying.

Call it a "greed-shift" from the local gambling location to the offshore player!

...Do believe in a country full of immigrant families, there are loads and loads of USA people with relatives outside the borders

I so like I think each US resident should make up their own mind (I'm not morally against it of course), but if you can't be sure to get your winnings then the fun is kind of gone isn't it?

Family and close friends aren't that deceptive. If there is enough confidence to hand-out money to a person outside the country, there more surely is some bonding already. It is a regular practice for the offshore "proxy person" to get a cut, so it is in his/her best interest to have the scheme working month after month smoothly.

...Of course, you never know what happens in the event of hitting a Progressive Jackpot!

I so like the way you guys think though.  You are very resourceful.

AH! I'm glad you are enjoying the debate. More casinos should get to check out the places where their players hang-out. Makes sense (even business-wise) to know the trends of thinking among players.

Thanks for being around Steven. We appreciate the input "from both sides of the table"...

Regards.
Victor

[ThomasGrant]

Some interesting points you made there Steven.

Sure hope to see more from you.

Any news on the table limits?

[VLS]

Nobody gets hurt. The online casino gets the player's business[...]

And I have to add it is also safe for the operator, since no USA-based IP ever touches their servers, hence no incriminating logs of USA operations at all.

Even if it is discovered, what is the operator going be blamed for? Taking wagers from a non-us IP? Taking and paying money to a non-US resident? (the "proxy player")

As far as the law regards, this is entirely a player-to-player affair.

[VLS]

Nobody gets hurt.

Well, perhaps the moral-less local greedy operators

[VLS]

And I have to add it is also safe for the operator

Thinking a bit, one must even argue this scenario is not only "just safe" (as in a very probability of breaking the law) but actually it may prove to be 100% legal for the operator, since -if I got the situation on the USA gambling ban right-, what is illegal in the USA is:

[box]SUBCHAPTER IV - PROHIBITION ON FUNDING OF UNLAWFUL INTERNET GAMBLING
5363. Prohibition on acceptance of any financial instrument for unlawful Internet gambling[/box]

So it deals with the transfer of "gambling funds" to financial institutions in the US.

Hence this remote wagering scheme could be a very valid "loophole" in the law, and the USA lawmakers already made it clear they aren't pursuing the players, but the institutions with the 2006 ban.

The casino operator in this case doesn't has any accountable "gambling fund transfer" within US soil, nor any IP-based communications with the USA player.

[VLS]

the USA-player wagers online with the largest risk being the offshore person's sincerity at the time of paying.

Regarding the risk of the Federal Wire Act, I must quote:

[box]. . . It does not go after the causal gambler who bets $2 on a race. That type of transaction is not within the purvue of the statute."[61]  In Baborian, the federal district court concluded that Congress did not intend to include social bettors within the umbrella of the statute, even those bettors that bet large sums of money and show a certain degree of sophistication.[62][/box]

(Source)



As you can see neither the internet gambling funding ban by the UIGEA of 2006 nor the Federal Wire Act target the player speficially, so chances are the USA person isn't going to be punished either.

[CelticCasino]

Say I register from Venezuela, you get my IP playing there, I win, collect my gains and then wire the winnings to TwoCatSam in Oklahoma (minus my cut). How is the operator ever going to know about it?

They never would. That would be impossible to track.

No USA IP, No USA data at all. As far as the operator concerns they are dealing (and paying to) a non-USA person.

This scenario would be undetectible (as far as i know) and no different from a foreign national from playing in a regulated country.

Thanks for being around Steven. We appreciate the input "from both sides of the table"...

Thanks Victor, I appreciate it. I think that my role is one of contributing to the community by offering support and information, without soliciting.

Cheers guys!