Casinowebcam's "fraud" definition

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URL: link:://:.casinowebcam.com/prelogin/faq.php#28

2.7 Fraud
Casinowebcam reserves the right to freeze and forfeit player accounts due to actual or suspected Fraudulent activity;
- Including but not limited to Multiple Registrations and/or Logins via either Casinowebcam or Licensee sites,
- Attempts by the player to circumvent the normal odds of the game played via electronic or other methods,
- and/or employing playing methods, including but not limited to the following; such as observing and/or recording deal outcomes over a period of time via login to Casinowebcam and/or Licensee sites,
- Using a system of progressive betting for example on Roulette over an extended period of play,
- Using Card Counting or other measures as determined solely by Casinowebcam and/or it's authorized agents on Table Games.
- Using any other Fraudulent method(s).
- In such cases ALL such Player Accounts will be subject to seizure by Casinowebcam and Prosecution will be followed to the fullest extent of the Law.



I agree card counting provides better or worse times to bet as certified by math and probabilities, but what about the extent of those points regarding our loved "spinning" table game?

Are they not certain of the math of this game or not listening to their math gurus about the certified independent trials in roulette?

You can't bet AFTER the ball is launched, even some very late bets get you a "bets not accepted" message, so they already counter Visual Ballistics.

Particularly interesting is this allegedly FRAUD point:

- Using a system of progressive betting for example on Roulette over an extended period of play.

I always thought the "math gurus advisors" would have prevented this sort of reactions from happening by keeping the casino owners happy with the accepted statements such as "progressions = more income for the casino, since player wagers more money per spin and the house egde gets you a cut from every dollar wagered on the game table"; plus the approved concepts: nobody but the house can win long term since it is a negative expectation game for the punters, etc. etc.

Is using progressions really fraud instead of more wagered money on the table for the casino to take its fixed cut?

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This point is over the edge in my opinion:

and/or employing playing methods

So you better play only on hunches, birthdays, horoscope and lucky numbers, but never try to use any type of systematic way to play or you can get your account closed after you deposit real money with your credit card or wire transfer, and it doesn't need to be ACTUAL fraud, as in an attempt to hacking their database servers and they see your IP as the attack's origin so they have actual proof against you (-of course that sort of activity really deserves to close the account and forfeit the funds-), but, they don't need to prove anything, only suspect:

Casinowebcam reserves the right to freeze and forfeit player accounts due to actual or suspected Fraudulent activity;

So if you win by playing orderly and they simply suspect you are employing a certain method of play (perhaps because of the rithm of your placed bets) then you will get your funds forfeited and your account closed.

Wow, it sure looks like a fishy operation there.

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By the way -system's reputation aside- Steve Hourmouzis commented about his players being denied payouts and having funds forfeited:

They don't need to be large amounts for them to refuse payouts. It's is more your method of play. They can know if you exploit a bias, or other known pattern types, by what you bet on. One player lost almost $3000 of his starting bankroll

And it gets more awful:

[...]by their definition, any system is fraud. Any legitimate attempt to win is fraud. Whatever way you look at it, you CANNOT win at casinowebcam.com, even if you had a magic 8-ball. They are as dirty as they get. It doesn't mean other live online casinos aren't honest though. Some have never refused my players payouts. I wont name names except to say londonscasino.com and casinowebcam.com are definitely dirty.

Totally dishonest and they've been doing like this for years now   (Source)



Another point made clear is regarding to the buy-in money, which one could say belongs to the player until he loses it, but he commented:

they can take your entire bankroll (starting bankroll and all)

Well, in my opinion that's plain stealing!

So, say someone deposits $10,000 to fund a martingale -maybe didn't read the terms fully taking for granted as he isn't going to make anything (formerly not) considered fraudulent/illegal but just using a method, and risk losing the whole 10K, nothing wrong with that if he understands the odds of such a feat and have the guts or risking that kind of money doesn't hurt his life.

Well if he goes to -say- $17,000 too fast to attrack the attention and they *SUSPECT* he's using a type of system: BAM! They are entitled to get all of his 17,000 locked, expropiate his 10,000 to the casino's wallet (original 10K forfeited) and delete his account???. That's STEALING the 10K as I see it, simply as that.

Proper way would be refusing to pay any winnings, OK, on the premise of the player using a "fraudulent method" (by their definition), return the player his buy-in and only after the player gets his funds, they can proceed to fully delete his account, ban his IP, blacklist his credit card, etc. etc.

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Xman1970 asked:

Just a thought IF I play the "casinowebcam's" live wheel @ Ladbrokes am I playing to Ladbrokes terms & conditions or casinowebcam's?

My answer: You are playing ladbrokez.

CasinoWebCam is the one ruling consistent winning illegal/fraud as per their definition and the ones thinking player's buy-in is a donation to their wallet ready to be seized = stealing the players flat.

I asked this very question myself since at the chat the dealer was telling: we don't cheat, we are a fair casino... I was playing from Ladbrokez so I asked if she ment "fair" for Ladbrokez or CasinoWebCam; she said she didn't know Ladbrokez, that she only speaks for CasinoWebCam.

She insisted they don't trick the outcome, that dealers provide fair game etc.... poor dealer, she clearly didn't know the terms & conditions of the owners.

They swear the roulette outcomes a fair, and hopefully the spins are, but what does it matter if you can't withdraw consistently because of their terms?

If you really need to play those dealers and that particular wheel, better to play on another more term-fair casino who uses the feed such as Ladbrokez.



I checked myself, and this is what Ladbrokez' terms say about fraud:

Fraud

Ladbrokes will seek criminal and contractual sanctions against any customer involved in fraud, dishonesty or criminal acts and will make such reports are as necessary to the authorities. Ladbrokes will withhold payment to any customer where any of these are suspected. The customer shall indemnify and shall be liable to pay to Ladbrokes, on demand, all costs, charges or losses sustained or incurred by Ladbrokes (including any direct, indirect or consequential losses, loss of profit and loss of reputation) arising directly or indirectly from the customerââ,¬â,,¢s fraud, dishonesty or criminal act.

QUITE A DIFFERENCE FROM CASINOWEBCAM, no particularly ruling any method/progression. it shows they only use them for cam feed, not sharing the thinking of the casinowebcam's owners.



If you want the webpage to inform yourself on ladbrokez, here it is:
link:://fbg.ladbrokes.com/en/home-gen-overview/home-gen-terms

I'm so glad Casinowebcam is the only wacky one at their terms!  

haha, for them the Martingale is illegal.

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TwoCatSam said:

When I could play and use NetTeller, CWC was my casino of choice.  If and when I can play again in the USA, I will go back to them or to their feed going to BetInternet or Ladbrooke's.  Their wheel is a John Huxley Starburst, the same as in Sienna Casino in Reno, Nevada.  This is my absolute wheel of choice.

As to their crookedness and thievery.......

Yes, I read their disclaimer.  Here is what I learned from talking to people who were actually playing.  CWC has a low table and a high table and several in between.  When they talk about progressions, they are not talking about single-table Martingales.  Hell, they'd love that!  They are talking about people who have three or four computers running and are logged in under different names and start at the dollar table and when they max it, they move to the next one up all the way to the top.  A progression could win virtually every time as you have a range from $5 up to $8,000.  You can be on Ladbrooke's and CWC AND BetInternet at the same time also and run three progressions from casino to casino.  They will eventually catch you.

They call this cheating.  I don't know.

With a computer at home it would be easy to count the cards at Blackjack.  OK, you make $5 bets for a few hands and then jump to $5,000.  RED FLAG.

Even Vegas won't let you do this.

Whether anyone believes it or not, I won considerable money at CWC and was paid.  When the ban came, I was locked out of my account and was paid $500 through NetTeller which I didn't even ask for.

And, no, I'm not baiting anyone to buy the system I won the money with.  Never sold anything; never will.  I have posted the systems before.  They are based on my theories and, if you aren't in a big-arse hurry, they work.  Wakers, doubles, repeaters, green on the screen--all that crapola.

Samster

Yes Samster, they must pay some players, otherwise nobody would use the casino.

Thing is, if they have a pick on you, you can't make anything. It is like playing some "would I get paid" lottery with them, I'm not in for that.

Just the sole image of "What if them at their sole discretion say I'm 'cheating'?" is enough to drive me away from their facilities.

After all, they do assume I have read their terms, and I have agreed to be sentenced by their definition of fraud and everything else in there, so legally to them I'm willfully playing at their conditions by choice. Well: not the case.



...I know there are better places with more fair terms.

Betinternet and Ladbrokes both use casinowebcam's feed and they are more fair in their terms to the player. Betinternet has a history of paying players big sums without cheating acussations, even for consistent winners; no brainer that's better for playing that particular wheel than the casinowebcam provider itself.

It is just a matter of common sense.

If you as a person are free to choose where to walk-in, then better not to willingly place yourself under the birds' cage... you may get "rained"