Do you think online casinos cheat?

[ugly bob]

It's hard for some guys to get to B+M casinos what with the distances involved in large countries. So I can see it's tempting to play online and hope you get a fair go.

My advice would be to only play live dealers online. Maybe some of them cheat as well....but it's probably the best deal you are going to get!

I was thinking about how the airball machines could possibly cheat players over the last few days bearing in mind they are classified like slots as a few posters have mentioned on various sites.

I am sure it would be easy to arrange it so that the computer can work out all the locations with the heaviest betting action.

Then what is to stop the compressed air blowing upwards through those slots making it harder for the ball to land in them.

If this was possible.....it would allow the casino some kind of control over the profit and losses.

It's just conjecture on my part. Who knows?

Stick to live dealers 

[ADulay]

I am convinced that they cheat.

Also so called live tables,its all a hoax.

I was playing simultanious with my friend in a well known online casino ,he was palying with play money and I was playing with real money .


he kept winning and I kept losing .
Most online casinos are scammers, I am sure.

Porker,

  Can you explain just how that all worked?   You were both on the same table, one guy using play money and one guy using real money and only one guy won?

  Well, of course it would work that way, assuming you were betting opposite of each other.

  Now, if you were both making the same wagers, at the same table, just how did one guy win and one guy lose?

  Anyway, a few more details would be nice here.

  I've played multiple computers (and accounts) on the same live table and the results were always correct for whichever side the wagers were on and the RESULTS WERE IDENTICAL.   That's called TESTING to make sure you're playing on a live table that really is live!  It's also your own money so it would only make sense to TEST to make sure it's OK.

  So, what were the details of this "rigged" table you and your friend were on?

  AD

[ADulay]

My next try will be on a live wheel, but the pace of live play kills me.

ati,

   Well, you can lose fast or win slow.

   Take your pick.

   Evidently the pace of the RNG game isn't helping you out at all!
   
   AD

[iggiv]

airball is NOT  A SLOT MACHINE. it's mechanical. Slot machine is electronic. You still have the same roulette wheel in an airball machine.

[iggiv]

there is videoroulette in some casinos, it's working like a slot machine, u don't have a roulette wheel there. but that's not an airball.

[Azim]

there is videoroulette in some casinos, it's working like a slot machine, u don't have a roulette wheel there. but that's not an airball.

True.  The winning odds on those are 32 - 1. Not 35 - 1.

[ausguy]

Ig - Flawed assessment on airball ?  Yes they may "appear" to operate like a live dealer spun wheel, that's what the casinos want you to think/believe.

"Airball is not a slot machine", physically true Ig but why are they classified Worldwide by all gaming authorities as EGMs ? (electronic gaming machines).
EGMs have many different categories rangeing from RNG slots/poker machines, video RNG roulette like Vegas Star, video blackjack, video horse & dog racing & some other dice & card games plus as already mentioned Airball/slingshot roulette. 

Live dealer spun roulette is not regulated as EGM. They are treated as a true random result game. So they don't have to guarantee a set total % return to the player like EGMs do (independent audits check this). Live roulette/blackjack/baccarat/dice & horse/dog racing have one thing in common & that is how much you win or lose is not regulated except for any bet limits & odds/house advantage placed by the venue or bookie. Regulators are in place that check for fairness & cheating.

The manipulation of results on airball/slingshot has been extensively discussed before. The only site that I know that reveals the truth on the rigged results is UK wheel maker Cammergh. Go to that site & view their promo's of their auto wheels.

One part there describes that the ball track has hidden air jet holes (to "adjust" the ball speed). Then the wheel has fine speed controlled electric motors. They then go on to say what the outcome is with it non active & then active.  The ball lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (x37 Euro wheel). 20B is near enough  to being 180 deg. opposite to 4B. Another observation is that they apparently know where the ball will land no matter if the spin control is active or inactive.

If one wheel maker has it then all wheel makers will have it because the casinos/venues want/need controlled results/profits. They don't rely on true random results?
They'll all have different ways of manipulating the results due to patent design rights of individual wheel makers but no matter what wheel it is, once the speed of the ball is known via ball speed trackers they than know precisely what part of the circle the ball will  fall. They then co-ordinate the wheel speed to Zone the number/area of the wheel they need. The airball/slingshot wheels I've seen have very little ball bounce/scatter. The most obvious being Interblock also known as Organic.

Whether at the race track, on slots/poker machines, on airball/slingshot, on any video RNG game or on live dealer roulette or cards etc. only a minority of players/punters win. The majority lose. The difference is the take/profit for the bookie/casino/venue.

Some players say they win often on airball/slingshot roulette & therefore what I say is BS. All that matters to me is that like RNG roulette I can't win on airball as often as I can on live dealer wheels.

[Azim]

Ig - Flawed assessment on airball ?  Yes they may "appear" to operate like a live dealer spun wheel, that's what the casinos want you to think/believe.

"Airball is not a slot machine", physically true Ig but why are they classified Worldwide by all gaming authorities as EGMs ? (electronic gaming machines).
EGMs have many different categories rangeing from RNG slots/poker machines, video RNG roulette like Vegas Star, video blackjack, video horse & dog racing & some other dice & card games plus as already mentioned Airball/slingshot roulette. 

Live dealer spun roulette is not regulated as EGM. They are treated as a true random result game. So they don't have to guarantee a set total % return to the player like EGMs do (independent audits check this). Live roulette/blackjack/baccarat/dice & horse/dog racing have one thing in common & that is how much you win or lose is not regulated except for any bet limits & odds/house advantage placed by the venue or bookie. Regulators are in place that check for fairness & cheating.

The manipulation of results on airball/slingshot has been extensively discussed before. The only site that I know that reveals the truth on the rigged results is UK wheel maker Cammergh. Go to that site & view their promo's of their auto wheels.

One part there describes that the ball track has hidden air jet holes (to "adjust" the ball speed). Then the wheel has fine speed controlled electric motors. They then go on to say what the outcome is with it non active & then active.  The ball lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (x37 Euro wheel). 20B is near enough  to being 180 deg. opposite to 4B. Another observation is that they apparently know where the ball will land no matter if the spin control is active or inactive.

If one wheel maker has it then all wheel makers will have it because the casinos/venues want/need controlled results/profits. They don't rely on true random results?
They'll all have different ways of manipulating the results due to patent design rights of individual wheel makers but no matter what wheel it is, once the speed of the ball is known via ball speed trackers they than know precisely what part of the circle the ball will  fall. They then co-ordinate the wheel speed to Zone the number/area of the wheel they need. The airball/slingshot wheels I've seen have very little ball bounce/scatter. The most obvious being Interblock also known as Organic.

Whether at the race track, on slots/poker machines, on airball/slingshot, on any video RNG game or on live dealer roulette or cards etc. only a minority of players/punters win. The majority lose. The difference is the take/profit for the bookie/casino/venue.

Some players say they win often on airball/slingshot roulette & therefore what I say is BS. All that matters to me is that like RNG roulette I can't win on airball as often as I can on live dealer wheels.

Ausguy, I totally understand where you coming from. However explain this with Airball, why is it some number's follow each other as patterns.

Example: I have seen this and have taken advantage of it at times. If you actually track numbers landed, 13 always follows 5 on that day.  When 5 hit's bet the 13 neighbors and you will hit.
I have noticed that quite a bit. If it's not random and controlled are you telling me, I could make a fortune If i followed this, considering it's controlled.  Why would they in their right mind always follow a number after the other?

Don't make sense at all.  I am not talking of MYTHS  like people say 13 will follow 31 or vice versa. 32-23 I am not talking of that. I mean actually tracking and following the last hit and bet the next number plus neighbor.

Can you explain that in Airball?

[ausguy]

Azim - No I can't explain what the patterns are as obviously I don't have access to the game program nor the running profit/loss of the game ?

All I can make is an educated guess as to what "probably" goes on. Remember these machines are EGMs with % player returns the only regulated control, just like slots & we all should know how they eventually take all your money for most players. Yes they too have some winners but lots more losers.

1st & foremost the game is interactive to the amount of money bet at any one time. Sometimes it may need money & so avoids many players bets to rake in the money (the number activated manipulation mode). That doesn't mean that all players lose in fact it's beneficial for some to win so this encourages losing players to bet more thinking they too can soon be winners ?

2nd - I believe the game program will have neutral periods where the spins are true random ?

3rd - I believe the game program also has an RNG sub program that is sometimes used to vary the results (as seen on many RNG roulette patterns) ?

Now let's mix all this up with a few hours of play. You Azim walk in & sit down at your favourite airball machine & get ready to play, you look around & see only 1 other player playing & 6 vacant seats. A bit of light chat with that player reveals that a couple of players a short time before had between them lost $6,000.

The other player also tells you he is only betting minimum amounts and is slightly in profit.

(you may then ask yourself has this machine temporarily satisfied it's hunger for $$$$ ? You then say to yourself "I certainly hope so.")

Before you play you check the past displayed spins & you notice that the number pattern has changed about 1/2 way along which matches when the 2 losing players left the table.

I'm saying that the interactive program has turned off its manipulated bet mode & turned on its RNG manip. mode, thus the change in patterns. It can still make money in RNG mode & true random mode.
You Azim pick up on these patterns & start betting & fairly soon are in good profit. In that time 2 others have joined the game but still you notice the patterns continue. (for me the RNG mode is still active).

The 2 new players you observe are betting fairly large amounts & they say they are already $1 1/2grand in profit.  Then you notice that the patterns are now not showing up like before. (my view - the program has switched back to manip. mode to ease the bleed off to the 2 newer players).
You start losing a little so you stop betting & play the wait & see game.

The 2 new guys wins start to reduce (bet avoidance does this) & their smiles & laughter starts to taper (losing money does that to many a player).

Then 2 more players join the table (so now all seats are filled). You soon learn that these are the guys that lost $6k a little while ago.
After only a few bets the $6k losers are now $2k winners (2nd sitting win $8k) so they cash out as winners.

A guy you meet later tells me (Azim) he knows the $6k losers/$2k profit winners. When the guy met them after their $6k loss he said they said that the airball
game is the biggest ripoff known to mankind. Later after their $2k profit recovery he saw them where they said all is forgiven & airball can be ok sometimes & they'll be back tomorrow to "whip airball real good."

Meanwhile the 2 new guys have had a real bad run & cut out with a $4k loss. They say these machines should be put through a crusher & casino bosses jailed & that they'll never play airball again. 

You cash out with about $200 in profit as the patterns were too mixed for your play MO. You decide to grab a drink & meal & check the patterns later.
The original 1 low bet player cashes out only breaking even but says he'll be back another day soon when he feels his luck is in.

So in your play time at that airball game how has the casino done for profit or loss. The low stakes player is nuetral. Your win gives them - $200. The $6k losers/$8k winners makes it -$2,000 & -200 = -$2,200 & the 2 new guys @ +$4,000 so net casino profit = +$1,800.

Later you return to the same airball game & you find recent spins have favourable patterns for you. So you start betting again & soon are another $100 up. This suddenly changes as a few players start betting. They say they're already losing too much. You lose a little & cash out @ &75 profit. You leave the joint $275 ahead less $25 for drink & meal. So net $250.

In review of the game. Azim says ok with selective betting on patterns you can win. Small stakes player ok for a bit of a chance at some petty cash.
Large stake high risk bet players, to hell with the game when losing but A-OK when winning.
The other "shell shocked " $4k losers will never play that game again & that the rip-off is criminal.

Some other forum members have said they win a modest amount on air/auto wheels more often than lose playing hit & run game.

- and so ends my story of a manipulated game for the financial benefit of a casino or venue.

[Azim]

Ausguy,  I guess. It's hard to believe, but I do get what you saying.

[ausguy]

Azim - As you didn't elaborate I gather you will continue your pattern type play on airball ? If you continue to play time will tell if you can return an ever increasing profit or fall into the clutches of a rigged game & end up in the red ? My view is that it will eventually be the latter rather than the former?

[TwoCatSam]

"Remember these machines are EGMs"

How do you know this?

I play three casinos:  BV, Smart Live Airball and Dublin live.  I see the same stuff on all three.  On SL I saw 33 0 33 0.  Wouldn't that make you pucker if you were playing small numbers?  I was. 

But I have seen just as weird on Dublin.

Do you think they can puff the ball into a certain section?  A number?  Half the wheel?  What?  I'd really like to know.

Sam

[Azim]

"Remember these machines are EGMs"

How do you know this?

I play three casinos:  BV, Smart Live Airball and Dublin live.  I see the same stuff on all three.  On SL I saw 33 0 33 0.  Wouldn't that make you pucker if you were playing small numbers?  I was. 

But I have seen just as weird on Dublin.

Do you think they can puff the ball into a certain section?  A number?  Half the wheel?  What?  I'd really like to know.

Sam

Sam I have seen this even at the 2 casinos we have here. This is common. No one can change ones believe.


I once again think we are playing too many spins in a short period of time to see the fluctuation way to often.

[vladir]

They dont need to cheat to make a proffit...

[ausguy]

TCS - As I've said many times before in other posts I've found the EGM info. "buried" on various GR (gaming regulators) sites. It appears that Worldwide EGMs are standardised ? Casinos don't have this info. on display, they want to keep the player as dumb as possible.

They have all sorts of different classes like 2a,2b,2c. 3a,3b,3c,3d. 4a,4b & so on. The class given depends on how the game operates. The games range from slot/poker machines, from basic 3 reels to high roller multi wheels through to video roulette, dice & card games. Then horse & dog racing & auto wheel roulette (slingshot or airball). It's all very technical & complex as more info. is added to their lists as new games/technology are developed.

I've spent hours on GR sites trying to fathom it all ( pdf pages run to 150 +). Also on google. I never really got the full picture but sufficient to post that airball games are EGMs.

2cat as you'd really like to know, are you familiar with the Cammergh name in roulette wheels ? Even if you aren't go to their site Cammergh.com & get into their product section & have a look at their 360 model auto airball wheel. It's there that they talk about descrete air jet holes in the ball track (adjusts ball speed).

Then they talk about fine speed control electric motors for the rotor wheel.  It's then that they say that with the active control on it lands on 20 Black instead of 4 Black (opp.sides) if it was switched off. Logic then suggests that they know where the ball will land in either mode ? They also gave another example (I'm not 100% as haven't checked) something like (in active) 14 Red instead of 36 Red about 1/3 of the wheel apart.

They also have a short video demo. I haven't looked at it but Adulay did some time back & said it wasn't too revealing ?

The technology is there to have live dealer ball launch at the press of a button (nil hand spin) & even ball/wheel speed control on live dealer wheels, for the future, as players we're doomed.