Do you think online casinos cheat?

[iggiv]

airball is called "electronic roulette" for simple reason i guess. Because interaction with it is electronic. you press buttons for betting, no placing  bets physically (mechanically). So in that sense they are electronic machines. But the wheel is still mechanical. I believe so.

[ausguy]

Vladir - No they don't need to cheat to make SOME kind of profit ? What they want is constant guaranteed fixed % profits. The only way they can do this is to legally cheat, thus the EGMs. The only way they can ensure that the players get their proper % returns is also to control the results.

It all evolves from slots/poker machines that have been around for 75 - 80 years, give or take. Well before the computers we now have evolved.

Originally all the play was on the mechanical machines with lots of internal gears and the rotating reels, the classic fruit machine. The play was made via a pull handle & so also became known as the 1 arm bandit (stealing from the player). From way back the % returns were adjustable. Also the payouts were mostly dribbled back to the player.

Because of the mainly small payouts the player mostly feeds the small change back in hoping for a nice fat payout/jackpot. For the majority this never happens & so they finish their play with zero balance. However the most important point is that the payout total % back to the player has been met yet the machine has all the players money.  Like winning in tennis it's Game, Set & Match.

Roll forward to more recent years & slots/pokies became computerized via RNG programs (google has bulk on this) but they still came with adjustable % returns.
Why ? Because the operator wants it like that.

In more recent years other video gambling games came along as well as auto roulette wheels. The common requirement by casinos/club/game venues was controlled % returns just like the slots/pokies have. To achieve that they need to manipulate the results. This they can do as they are EGMs not live dealer true random spun wheels.

Once the Airball game complies with set players % returns the game is then able to LEGALLY clean you out. Note it's the combined amounts not individual amounts that matter because that's all that is audited & over a longer time period for more accurate stats. I know this because it is stated on all Gaming Regulators sites that I have seen.

What this means for the individual player is that you could win good at some stage but other players at the table get worked over real good & so are busted pretty quick. Other days you just can't crack a profit but other players are winning.

The sad thing is that the manipulation is going on by stealth with most players believing they are playing a fair game. It's the same on video RNG where some players are actually tracking the spin trends on roulette results by marking up a game card like they do ln live dealer, usually it does them no good as they usually go bust eventually.

The worrying trend for me here at my local casino in Sydney OZZ is less live dealer & more RNG games. Pokies/slots figure large, 1,000 + machines. RNG roulette has increased but live dealer wheels have shrunk by at least 60%. They've also increased the live play inside minimum  from $5 to $10 with only 1 $5 game but a dbl zero added between 5R & 10B. Low budget players have now been pushed onto RNG, what a rort. 

Airball/slingshot doesn't figure much at all, some regular casino players have told me if you want to lose keeep playing the auto wheel. That's why they stopped playing the darn thing.

Also on any airball wheel have a close look for any ball speed readers, LEDs or over track sensors. Many also have deep ball catching pockets & minimal ball bounce. All part of the design to hit the programmed number.

[ausguy]

Ig - as I've already said to 2Cat, get onto the Cammergh wheel makers site & have a look at the wheels they make. In particular have a look at their 360 airball wheel.
Then come back on here & tell me what you think ?   Yes the wheels are mechanical everyone can see that but what some can't see/don't want to see is the manipulation that lurks within the machine. A lot of people in the past believed that the World was flat.

Every type of auto wheel needs to have controlled results not just Cammergh because that's what casinos/venues want

Also read my 1st 3 sentences in my last post to Vladir.

[iggiv]

Ausbuddy,

i got there, and see what i get?

link:://:.cammegh.com/product.php?product=slingshot2&tabs=1-0-0-0


The patented and GLI 11 approved Cammegh Slingshot 2 is the most authentic, accurate and reliable automatic roulette wheel available anywhere in the world. The elegant and simplistic design of the Slingshot 2 combines random rotor and ball speed at launch with Cammegh’s unique ARC (Active Rotor Control) system which after ‘no more bets’, imperceptibly changes the rotor to a new random speed.

The ball is launched by being blown out of the pocket by a puff of air, it is then met by a random blast of air from discrete air jets mounted in the ball track.

The ‘no more bets’ signal and winning number are recognised securely by three discreet In-Rim laser sensors. During the game cycle the ball remains in view at all times, reassuring players and upholding the integrity of the wheel.

[iggiv]

Ausguy, buddy, if
any casino wheel maker or casino will let a slightest suspicion of some monkey business with their stuff to come out to open -- they risk to lose hundreds if not thousands of players. Those are the days of flashmobs, internet news and online  reactions on them turn into real life bloody revolutions and civil wars! And this happens in the countries which are not the greatest in the sense of web communication development everywhere. But look what may happen if some casinos or their suppliers  get it out in the open: "we can manipulate our wheels".

the reply can be in days and hundreds of players everywhere will spread the news to each other...

[ausguy]

Ig - Casinos worldwide would have , at a guess ?, 100 million people playing in any one week ? This forum has 1,058 listed members. Even adding in all roulette forum/gaming members everywhere compared to casino players it's like a handful of sand to all the sand on a beach.

What forum members say or reveal would never reach 99.9999% of casino players either B & M or on line. Casinos know this & so don't need to care what we reveal or say as it has no impact on their profits.

Cammergh certainly doesn't care to keep info. confidential.

Put the "Monkey Business" info. on you tube, facebook, twitter won't have any effect at all because Ig. most people couldn't give a *hit because they don't gamble & those that do most don't play airball. Also many don't even speak/read English.

Justin Bieber getting hit in the head with a drink bottle the other day would swamp any info. anyone puts out on cheating airball. I just read today he has 46 million plus facebook followers. 

Airball is not a big item in any casino anyway. They could remove the machines off the floor & their profits wouldn't change at all, players would just spend it on some other game ?

Unless someone can prove to me/anyone that airball/auto wheels don't cheat then it's as Cammergh says where they "combine random rotor and ball speed at launch ......... after no more bets the rotor control imperceptibly (humanly unable to detect) changes the rotor to a new random speed....... The ball is launched.....it is met by a random blast of air from discrete (hidden/not revealed) air jets mounted in the ball track."

Auto wheels don't worry me as I don't play them, I wised up to the cheating ripoffs ages ago.

[Azim]

Unless someone can prove to me/anyone that airball/auto wheels don't cheat then it's as Cammergh says where they "combine random rotor and ball speed at launch ......... after no more bets the rotor control imperceptibly (humanly unable to detect) changes the rotor to a new random speed....... The ball is launched.....it is met by a random blast of air from discrete (hidden/not revealed) air jets mounted in the ball track."

What you are saying, now is, It's your belief that they cheat.  No one can change any ones belief. It's in you and up to you to believe or not.

I personally have said it. I don't believe it's fixed. I gave you a my explanation. If a number falls, why does the next number be closer or a repeat of sequences of number's. 

Auto wheels don't worry me as I don't play them, I wised up to the cheating ripoffs ages ago.

[Carsch]

This Spring i was playing at the Atlantis casino in the Bahamas, and at one point, the pitboss decided to change the ball for a bigger ball. He asked if i didn't mind. I didn't. Then i was thinking.......why would they have different roulette ball sizes? Does anyone know the reason?

[Steve]

It is a FACT that many RNG casinos cheat. By that I mean they will predetermine results based on what payouts have already been given. I haven't yet seen any evidence that casinos that offer live webcam roulette cheat. The exception is payout refusals for pathetic or no excuses, which is as good as cheating.

[Skakus]

This Spring i was playing at the Atlantis casino in the Bahamas, and at one point, the pitboss decided to change the ball for a bigger ball. He asked if i didn't mind. I didn't. Then i was thinking.......why would they have different roulette ball sizes? Does anyone know the reason?

Among other things it changes the timing, the ball decay, and the scatter, and helps dissolve any bias that might be present in the current situation.

Perhaps they suspected you or someone else at the table was using visual ballistics, etc, or perhaps it was just something the casino does periodically by default.

[ausguy]

OK Azim as you're a fan of the airball/autowheel game let's see how you go with it from now until the end of the year. Just give a regular update of the basics of your play such as BR, number of bet spins +/- profit or loss & running net total, number of sessions per week or similar.

If your MO is correct you will be in viable profit & if I'm correct you will be in the RED & underwater.

[Steve]

The automated wheels dont "cheat", meaning they dont determine the winning number based on your bets (to avoid them). But almost all do have in-built countermeasures. For example, the cammegh slingshot randomizes rotor speed changes after no more bets is called.

Does this make winning more difficult? That depends on the method you use to win. It doesnt affect methods where you bet before ball release, like bias. But it does affect roulette computers and visual ballistics, which is the designer's intention. To what extent does it affect accuracy? That depends on the wheel settings. It mostly reduces the edge, but rarely completely evaporates it.

Generally speaking, you can still beat slingshots, but it comes down to the individual wheel, it's subtle differences, and the settings. But as a general rule, professional players avoid them because there are much easier wheels around. If you ask people in the know, the wheels act more as a deterrent to professional players rather than a complete solution. For now, the only solid solution for casinos is detection of consistent winners, and taking whatever action is required for each case.

[ausguy]

Carsch - Just to add to what Skakus has said I think the small ball is made of different material to the larger ball.

From memory I think the smaller ball bounces (scatter) a lot more than tha larger ball ? There has been some talk about teflon & ivorine balls & I'm sure Steve knows lots about that ?

Behind the scences (the good old backroom) all the spins that come up on the marquee sign board are recorded in their computers. Wheel Cammergh mentions about this in their PR & the analysis software they have. All wheel makers would have computer tracking.

At a glance the software might show a bias trend so a backroom call to the pit supervisor alerts him to the fact & so the ball change.

Now that you're aware of the different balls maybe you'll be able to then see if the bounce etc. is more or less ?

[Steve]

There are teflon, ivorine and nylon balls. Nylon balls are very light, and not used much. Teflon (usually white) is most common. Ivorine is hardest to beat as it has most bounce.

How different sizes affect scatter depend on diamonds and wheel pockets. Generally larger balls give more predictable scatter because they are more likely to have a "roll forward" effect.

Shallower pockets with large teflon balls are most common. The roll forward is about 10 pockets. It appears to move further, but the distance it rolls is more consistent.

Deeper pockets can be either good or bad. Like on the alfastreet wheel in my video at link:://:.roulettecomputers.com/video-demos/ the pocket hold the ball and don't let it bounce much. But on the mk7 huxley wheels with standard pockets, part of the pocket is deeper than the other, so scatter is much less predictable. then if you consider shallow cammegh pockets, you get the roll forward effect which is quite predictable.

If bias occurs with one ball, it will occur with another. Easiest solution is interchange rotors between wheels and recalibrate. This will resolve many causes of bias that occur only with specific rotor and wheel base combinations. Recalibration (levelling) helps with bias that occurs only with dominant diamonds, like where the rotor decelerates more at a specific orientation.

Two major problems with bias analysis are it takes too long, and the casino monitors for them anyway. You can still notice bias before the casino does if you use visual confirmation like what is explained at link:://:.genuinewinner.com/roulette-wheel-bias/ but still there are much better ways to beat roulette

[ausguy]

Steve - I think that going off info. on some of Cammerghs wheels that they can land any number at will ?

I just revisted Cammerghs site to refresh my memory and yes the still have the same PR for their wheels. On here I'm refering to the 37 number Euro wheel.

In particular their Mercury 360 RRS (random rotor speed) model. It also has "discrete" (hidden) air control jets in the ball track.

In a deacceleration test (slow it down) they say they hit 20B instead of 4B. These 2 numbers are almost opposite each other.

In the acceleration test (speed it up) they hit 9R instead of 36R some 14 pockets apart.

The pockets they say "instead" 4B & 36R with the spins in random non active RRS mode to me infers that they know through precise wheel & ball speeds which pocket the ball will hit regardless of what mode they have operating ? However with RRS active they can hit their target number.
Being under a dome in a controlled enviroment also helps

Also through my digging into gaming regulator sites I see that auto wheels are classed as EGMs & not true random spun roulette wheels.

The payouts & % returns are more related to slot/pokie functions than live dealer wheels.

In autowheel play if the game program deems that more income is due the play function will be altered to hit non bet on or low bet $$ numbers, therefore raking
in larger bets.

For the casino they now have another the "Holy Grail."

On another slant re: Interblock Organic auto wheel. If they also don't cheat why do they have 18 oversize ball to pocket guides masquerading as deflector diamonds ? Normal live dealer wheels have only about 6 much smaller deflector diamonds.