*DOCUMENTED* PROOF OF CHEATING RNG SOFTWARE

[1652485]

To go from "X online gambling site cheats" to "all online gambling sites cheat" is quite a jump.

There are cheats and frauds in all industries, governments, religions, families and any other human organization you can list.  That doesn't mean that everyone else in that organization is a cheater or fraud.  You just have to follow your gut to decide who is legit and who isn't.

Personally, I don't worry about it much.  If I were to avoid something I enjoy such as online gambling because I know there are cheats and frauds in the industry then I might as well apply this to the rest of my existence and move to the jungle where I don't have to deal with society at all.

I believe the current licensing and checks in place are strong enough that I'm okay with playing the casinos which are widely considered to have a good reputation.  Granted, even the best online gambling sites will have their problems. 

There will be hackers who occasionally succeed in exploiting the system (as seen with numerous poker networks which have had problems with players figuring out ways to cheat others through software exploits,) there will be rogue employees as there can be in any company and long list of other issues. 

But again, I can run into these problems with any of the companies I do business with from day to day, and that's not a reason to avoid them (though I can choose to take my business to their competitors if I feel I'm not being treated fairly.)  Again, if I were to fear getting screwed by every business I come across, then I might as well withdraw from society and live in a cave.

You can play or don't play.   You can voice your opinion.  Just please don't accuse a casino of being a cheat unless there is documented evidence as shown in the beginning of this thread.

As for Betvoyager, this casino is running the same rules of making money from statistics as any other legit casino.  They don't need to cheat because they have a great money minting business model.  They receive X percentage (house edge) of every cent which goes through their system.  BV is unique in that they have a number of games which are zero house edge (not all of them are.)  They take a 10% cut from withdrawals of winnings (only the winnings from the zero edge games) which exceed the deposit.  If you work out the math, you will see that in some cases this fee can exceed the house edge of the regular games and in some cases it won't.  It depends on the actions of the player.

[Bayes]

Well said. Personally I get tired of the endless accusations of cheating by players who have lost.

[CelticCasino]

Those guys are idiots. 
You absolutely need winners to establish a brand.  You can't do that by cheating. 

When we were looking for  a software provider we were approached by a small software firm (a guy and his tech buddy).  They were proud of their system that is similiar to the one mentioned earlier.  They give a higher payout to "fun" players and then a lower payout to real players.  They are destined to fail!

Players who WIN make the casino brand popular, not the other way around.  I also believe that in the long run the house will win.  I also am convinced that providing an excellent entertainment value is the real goal of a casino. 

[VLS]

Excellently worded. Pure idiotic to try to cheat players when the house has an embedded edge.

With plenty of negative-expectation players moving their money in the games, the smart casino would want to lock them in for as long time as possible as to give the house edge a chance to "kick-in".

If players are cheated, they simply turn their backs on that casino and taken elsewhere (It may not be fair but even only *perceived* cheating can make a player leave, mind you real cheating).

[iggiv]

Those guys are idiots. 
You absolutely need winners to establish a brand.  You can't do that by cheating. 

When we were looking for  a software provider we were approached by a small software firm (a guy and his tech buddy).  They were proud of their system that is similiar to the one mentioned earlier.  They give a higher payout to "fun" players and then a lower payout to real players.  They are destined to fail!

Players who WIN make the casino brand popular, not the other way around.  I also believe that in the long run the house will win.  I also am convinced that providing an excellent entertainment value is the real goal of a casino. 

So you don't deny the fact that something of a kind IS POSSIBLE?
maybe i am an idiot, but I say playtech software is just one like that which u encountered.
And they don't fail as  u see.

u can win easily in their fun mode, and u r gonna lose with the same methods in real money mode (unless u leave very quickly). And whatever works for their live wheel doesn't work for their real money RNG.
It can't be coincidence with so many people which paid attention at this. And most of them
are OK with Betvoyager.

[CelticCasino]

So you don't deny the fact that something of a kind IS POSSIBLE?
maybe I am an unintelligent, but I say playtech software is just one like that which you encountered.

It is possible, I've seen it just like the description in the beginning of the thread.

Does Playtech do it? I seriously doubt it. They are a reputable company as well as licensed.
I think it can happen, but I believe it's extremely rare.

Companies I know who don't do it:
Vuetec LTd. (Dublinbet, luckylivecasino.com, globallivecasino.com)
Visionary iGaming (Black Orchid Casino, CelticCasino.com, FairwayCasino.com)

Companies I'm 99.99999% (I don't see the backend software) sure that don't do it.

Smartlivecasino
supercasino
Playtech (CasinoEuropa, vegasred etc..)
Microgaming
Evolution (live casino software)

I'm sure I missed many reputable casinos. These were the ones off the top of my head that I've known about on forums like GPWA.org and CAP as well as CasinoMeisters.

[VLS]

Some people say no RNG is cheating. Some people say ALL RNGs cheat...

Neither one nor the other extreme.

The reality is *SOME* RNG's are cheats which means your best bet is to play only at reputable casinos.



Steven is right, the more people that realizes this they should go with the most established casinos the worse chances for the fly-by-night.

Also I think it was Bayes who said why would someone transfer to any casino without doing basic background checks.

Good and bad reputations for internet companies do leave a track online.

[iggiv]

It is possible, I've seen it just like the description in the beginning of the thread.

Does Playtech do it? I seriously doubt it. They are a reputable company as well as licensed.
I think it can happen, but I believe it's extremely rare.

Companies I know who don't do it:
Vuetec LTd. (Dublinbet, luckylivecasino.com, globallivecasino.com)
Visionary iGaming (Black Orchid Casino, CelticCasino.com, FairwayCasino.com)

Companies I'm 99.99999% (I don't see the backend software) sure that don't do it.

Smartlivecasino
supercasino
Playtech (CasinoEuropa, vegasred etc..)
Microgaming
Evolution (live casino software)

I'm sure I missed many reputable casinos. These were the ones off the top of my head that I've known about on forums like GPWA.org and CAP as well as CasinoMeisters.

it can't be a coincidence. Playtech RNG is not random, and they can get away with that.
Hard to prove, yes. But ask someone who spent considerable time on their RNG and on live wheels (including playtech live wheel of course, I can't complain about it) and on Betvoyager, anyone will tell you
that their patterns are not random, after repeating your pattern a few times you will always lose no matter what. Of course it can happen on a live wheel or betvoyager, but the difference is that it ALWAYS happens.

also in old VLS forum there was a guy, who used to be a programmer for playtech and he addmited that their RNG patterns are programmed not to be exactly random.

as for other casinos' RNG I can't argue with u, you may be right about them, I just did not try them yet (except Betvoyager)

[iggiv]

Vic, did u try playtech RNG, didn't u? What was your experience with that? Prestige casino or soemething of a kind if i remember right...

[VLS]

Vic, did you try playtech RNG, didn't u? What was your experience with that? Prestige casino or something of a kind if I remember right...

I did some RNG sessions with Paul (ElTigreMexicano on the forums) at Bet365.com.

Nothing conclusive. Just some sessions he asked me to make together on RNG for the fast pace.

Got mixed results. Still we turned $50 deposit in almost $1500 in a matter of 3 weeks or so, but it was on live roulette. After that, I just haven't done any more sessions with him and frankly speaking haven't used the RNG on Joyland (the other playtech casino I have account in).

I'm just a non-RNG guy, but I respect those who enjoy the increased pace and swear they aren't rigged.

[VLS]

P.S: I enjoy to see the wheel spin & the ball bounce... with physics!

(No matter how advanced, computerized roulette animations just don't make it for me).

[CelticCasino]

There's a lot of technical statisticians on this forum. It would be interesting if you guys made an independent analysis of the roulette games at the different casinos both RNG and live. Not on a retrospective analysis, but a from data you gather yourselves.

[1652485]

u can win easily in their fun mode, and you are gonna lose with the same methods in real money mode (unless you leave very quickly).

I hear this all the time and of course I have experienced it myself.

All of the systems I have tried lose at about the rate as would be expected accounting for house edge.  Then, I developed my first unique strategy with play money on two different casinos (and different software) and this strategy seemed like it just couldn't lose.  Sure enough, as soon as I moved to real money it did nothing but lose on both casinos.  Guess what happened when I moved back to play money after losing my bankroll?  It continued losing!  One casino was Betvoyager by the way.

So, what happened?  I was getting lucky on play money.  It wasn't the difference in play, it was the flaws in the strategy catching up to me.  Unfortunately those losses didn't catch up to me until I started playing real money.

I think what many roulette players don't understand is that you can't declare a casino a cheat because real money plays differently than play money until you have hit "long term."  The problem is, most of these players probably don't have the time,  patience or motivation to hit long term.  The first system I ever tried could go for over six hours of straight wins before I would hit a catastrophic loss.  After that loss, I could go on for another six hours before hitting another loss.  Sometimes the losses would be back to back within a half hour.  How many people would be declaring this system a success after just a couple hours of play, take it into real money, blow their entire bankroll and then complain the RNG is rigged?

I believe it's functionally impossible to win roulette over the long term with RNG's.  However, I also believe there are a very small number of players who from perhaps a glitch in the matrix or magic fairy dust are able to figure out a way to consistently make money on roulette.  That said, I have my own new strategy that I'm working on and it has been very promising, so I'm not giving in yet!  Perhaps I can turn myself into one of the few to have discovered the magic fairy dust.

*** Caveat emptor!!! ***

Some casino software really is different between real money and play money because the two modes generate results from different sources.  On some casinos, play money uses the RNG from your operating system while real money uses the RNG from the casino.  I believe the difference could create different "personalities."

Take a look at this interesting analysis. 

link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html

[1652485]

There's a lot of technical statisticians on this forum. It would be interesting if you guys made an independent analysis of the roulette games at the different casinos both RNG and live. Not on a retrospective analysis, but a from data you gather yourselves.

Betfair provides a API for their casino, I wish more would follow.  Imagine building a site where people could sign up to have their RNG output automatically pulled into the database via an API.  This site could even have multiple levels of controls where a player could opt to share only RNG output, or output and bet results.  The controls could also allow for some info to be public to be viewed by anyone.  People could be doing all sorts of analysis with this data and it would give more transparency to the casino.  Any third party site could run it's own independent verification that the RNG is indeed fair.

[iggiv]

I hear this all the time and of course I have experienced it myself.

All of the systems I have tried lose at about the rate as would be expected accounting for house edge.  Then, I developed my first unique strategy with play money on two different casinos (and different software) and this strategy seemed like it just couldn't lose.  Sure enough, as soon as I moved to real money it did nothing but lose on both casinos.  Guess what happened when I moved back to play money after losing my bankroll?  It continued losing!  One casino was Betvoyager by the way.

So, what happened?  I was getting lucky on play money.  It wasn't the difference in play, it was the flaws in the strategy catching up to me.  Unfortunately those losses didn't catch up to me until I started playing real money.

I think what many roulette players don't understand is that you can't declare a casino a cheat because real money plays differently than play money until you have hit "long term."  The problem is, most of these players probably don't have the time,  patience or motivation to hit long term.  The first system I ever tried could go for over six hours of straight wins before I would hit a catastrophic loss.  After that loss, I could go on for another six hours before hitting another loss.  Sometimes the losses would be back to back within a half hour.  How many people would be declaring this system a success after just a couple hours of play, take it into real money, blow their entire bankroll and then complain the RNG is rigged?

I believe it's functionally impossible to win roulette over the long term with RNG's.  However, I also believe there are a very small number of players who from perhaps a glitch in the matrix or magic fairy dust are able to figure out a way to consistently make money on roulette.  That said, I have my own new strategy that I'm working on and it has been very promising, so I'm not giving in yet!  Perhaps I can turn myself into one of the few to have discovered the magic fairy dust.

*** Caveat emptor!!! ***

Some casino software really is different between real money and play money because the two modes generate results from different sources.  On some casinos, play money uses the RNG from your operating system while real money uses the RNG from the casino.  I believe the difference could create different "personalities."

Take a look at this interesting analysis. 

link:://:.boallen.com/random-numbers.html

i am not talking about cases like yours. i am talking about losing and winning ratio on a consistent basis. On a long run. say u play 5 out of 6 streets.
--on playtech RNG real money mode
--fun mode
-- live wheel

U always gonna be blown up on real money mode after 20 spins. U may lose, u may win in a fun mode or live wheel after that many spins. but not like on real money mode, where u won't win unless u get the hell out of there very quickly.

i am talking now of completely different results on a long run (unless u use hit and run tactics in RNG real money mode)