Betvoyager No Zero Roulette: worse in short term, better in long term

[psimoes]

For the no zero game, on average, since the odds are completely fair, you will make no net profit, and no net loss. You break even. So in the "long run" you pay no 10% tax at all.

Sorry, not sure about this.
Would be true if the house returned all the10% fees taxed in the short run I think. Or if they payed the player 10% of the net loss. Which they obviously won´t.

[Priyanka]

The deduction on winnings is not made in the way you have calculated it. In fact things are actually better than I thought, because the 10% applies only to net winnings.

So I know which game I'd rather play, and the simulation proves it.

I give you that 

[Bliss]

Sorry, not sure about this.
Would be true if the house returned all the10% fees taxed in the short run I think. Or if they payed the player 10% of the net loss. Which they obviously won´t.

Yeah well, I was just looking at it from the point of view of the long term average. Of course you will end up paying the tax sometimes, even if you don't have a winning system. 

The point is, the tax is not applied in the way it is on Baccarat, for example. In Bacc, you only get a 95% return on banker bets: every banker bet. That has a grinding effect on your bankroll especially when you make large bets. That doesn't happen here because the deduction is made only on net winnings at the end of a session. Big difference.

[psimoes]

I see your point. Thanks

[psimoes]

Yeah well, I was just looking at it from the point of view of the long term average. Of course you will end up paying the tax sometimes, even if you don't have a winning system. 

The point is, the tax is not applied in the way it is on Baccarat, for example. In Bacc, you only get a 95% return on banker bets: every banker bet. That has a grinding effect on your bankroll especially when you make large bets. That doesn't happen here because the deduction is made only on net winnings at the end of a session. Big difference.

You know, if NZ has the same odds as coin toss, then there will be times when the losing sessions will be even with the winning sessions. So in the long run the player will lose those 10 percent to the house per winning session. It´s still unfair payout in disguise.

[Bliss]

I agree that if you're only going to make a few bets, maybe like that guy Ashley Revell  , then you're probably better off sticking with their standard house edge games. But a regular player who can't guarantee that they will win - and who can? then the NZ option is the best.

Again, I have no reason to "promote" Betvoyager. I don't have an account and don't play RNG anyway, but it seems a bit harsh to characterize them as scammers. I was looking at their site and they even have a page about the house edge. How many online casinos give you this kind of information? It's not in their interest to do so; it seems to me that they're more transparent than most.

Regarding the randomness control, it seems that the algorithm is in the public domain, so you could create your own program to compute the checksum. In that case there would be no chance of them being able to cheat. You don't have to rely on their software if you don't trust it.

link:s://:.betvoyager.com/randomness/#randomness-control-video/

The checksum is being computed with the help of the program used in our casino. Players can use other programs to compute the checksum for text information according to the SHA-256 algorithm. Players can find such programs on the following websites:

    link:://jssha.sourceforge.net
    link:://:.farfarfar.com/scripts/encrypt
    link:://:.fileformat.info/tool/hash.htm
    Additional checksum calculators

The SHA-256 is merely one of numerous algorithms that can be used to compute a checksum. We have chosen it to ensure randomness control in our casino because no modern sources of information have ever uncovered any insecurities or incorrectness connected with this algorithm.

[INTERCEPTOR]

I can agree that RNG is fair random, but online roulette have other parts in program which can be manipulated by programmers so everything looks in order, for example RNG hit number 9 but on display it can show number 32 because I have no money on 32 so at the end everything is perfect for casinos

[Bliss]

MumboJumbo,

That's exactly the situation which the feature is supposed to give you peace of mind about. It seems you haven't understood how it works. To be fair though, the explanation given on the site could be clearer. I understand it because I'm familiar with the technology which is used everywhere; emails, downloading files, anywhere where information is transmitted.

The idea is that a spin (or spins) are generated in advance of you playing them. The point of doing that is so that you can check, after the spin actually appears on the screen, that it was the same spin which was generated before you placed your bet.

A unique code is generated for the spin(s) which have been generated in advance. You place your bet, then that spin is displayed. You can now check (using either their software or your own), that the code is the same as that which was given before you place your bet. If the code is different, it means the spin generated in advance was changed after you bet, in which case you know the casino was cheating.

Same principle with emails or downloading files. Have you ever downloaded a file and been given a checksum? the checksum is there to ensure that the file you downloaded wasn't corrupted in transit.

To be honest I don't know why other casinos don't do the same with their RNG. A lot of potential players are put off because, as you say, it would be easy for the casino to cheat you by changing the spin after you've made your bet.

Some people reckon that the casino figures out your pattern of play, but that's nonsense. They would just be gambling in that case. The simplest way for them to cheat is just to present a number different to the number (or group of numbers) that you bet on, after you bet.

[INTERCEPTOR]

Ok, you said " I'm familiar with the technology which is used everywhere; emails, downloading files, anywhere where information is transmitted." Can I ask you something ? Do you familiar with reverse engineering in computer programming?

[Bliss]

Do you familiar with reverse engineering in computer programming?

I am. What's your point?

[psimoes]

I agree that if you're only going to make a few bets, maybe like that guy Ashley Revell  , then you're probably better off sticking with their standard house edge games. But a regular player who can't guarantee that they will win - and who can? then the NZ option is the best.

The guy that bet his life savings on a colour? He would have a better chance on the NZ wheel. I think it can be more  benefitial to the player that makes a few bets on the NZ, wins* and leaves for good than the SZ. It´s just that it will definitely make the player lose in the long run.

* This provided the player wins the few sessions and as you say, no one guarantees that. But in the short run it´s a fair odds game as advertised.

Regarding the original topic I think it can be as much as a scam as the SZ or DZ is, but in the same sense casinos don´t tell the players about the house edge. They don´t have to and they (both casinos and majority of gamblers) don´t care. Remember, the Zero isn´t there to screw the individual player up; it´s just there because the house is running a business and without it it wouldn´t make any profit with the game. The NZ has to profit from the player in some way, because the service and transactions cost money. 10% is a bit on the high side though, but there are other games with a higher house edge for no apparent reason I think.

[psimoes]

Steve I´m saying he would have had a better chance to win on NZ because he would be betting 18 against 18 instead of 18 against 19.

[psimoes]

This is crazy, you need to have an edge of 10% just to stay even. Or win 10 sessions out of 19 . Given a proper bankroll and within reasonable table limits, can you win a coin toss game?

[Priyanka]

Again my problem with betvoyager is the advertising as if the casino has no edge.

I logged in today to betvoyager to see what they are saying. They seem to say two things
1. The only no zero roulette in the world
2. With real equal odds during game play.

They dont seem to say the casino has no edge. Looks like they are very clear on what they are offering. Also, before anyone enters the game they are displaying a huge popup that says 10% house fee will be taken from the winnings. Interesting!!

[Ross]

When I was a lad if you put $1 on a horse at 10/1
and it won you got $10 plus your stake back.

Now it seems that the stake is included in the $10
so it's only 9/1.

BVNZ pays 36/1 (which includes your stake) which, to me
is 35/1 so there is a house edge.