@ turbo

[Nimo]

Dealer's signature falls under ballistics.  It's not really a system.  Yes, the player can theoretically get a very small edge with it at times.  It's not in anyway the same as other roulette systems because it's not designed to beat the game, but rather the wheel.  Systems designed to beat the wheel/dealer make sense and should be encouraged.  However systems designed to try and beat the game are a fool's folly.

Have you ever listened to yourself?  We are all trying beat the roulette game.  The wheel is the RNG part of the game, the dealer is the operator of the RNG.  Its all part of the game. What you are saying is basically instead of chauffeur driving a car for you, you are trying to beat him by predicting which way he will turn. 

We are all beating the roulette game. Why is always a large bunch of doublespeak?  Are you all so full of shit that verbal diarrhea come out?

[The General]

Have you ever listened to yourself?  We are all trying beat the roulette game.  The wheel is the RNG part of the game, the dealer is the operator of the RNG.  Its all part of the game. What you are saying is basically instead of chauffeur driving a car for you, you are trying to beat him by predicting which way he will turn. 

We are all beating the roulette game. Why is always a large bunch of doublespeak?  Are you all so full of shit that verbal diarrhea come out?

Again, trying to beat the random game of roulette is foolish.  It has been mathematically proven time and time again that it's simply not possible.
However, trying to beat the non random gaming device/dealer is possible and it has been done countless times since the invention of the game.


Attempt to design systems around the wheel!

[Roulettebeater]

Have you ever listened to yourself?  We are all trying beat the roulette game.  The wheel is the RNG part of the game, the dealer is the operator of the RNG.  Its all part of the game. What you are saying is basically instead of chauffeur driving a car for you, you are trying to beat him by predicting which way he will turn. 

We are all beating the roulette game. Why is always a large bunch of doublespeak?  Are you all so full of shit that verbal diarrhea come out?

nimo,

RNG is not roulette.
physics rules apply to wheels not to Rng.
nobody can beat RNG except hackers. Wheels can be beaten.. i am beating it daily!

give up on RNG! you are looping in an endless circle. Believe me!

Cheers

[Nimo]

nimo,

RNG is not roulette.
physics rules apply to wheels not to Rng.
nobody can beat RNG except hackers. Wheels can be beaten.. i am beating it daily!

give up on RNG! you are looping in an endless circle. Believe me!

Cheers

The roulette wheel was created to provide numbers randomly.  It is still a random number generator.  RNG stands for random number generator.  It is a tool within the roulette game.  The game includes the layout mat, and the croupier.  If I am at a wheel and an AP player is at a wheel, he notices a bias on the section of
0, 32 so he places chips on them. I have a system that plays only those two numbers, we are still both trying to beat the game. The game not the wheel, you can have a wheel and without the other components its just a dead weight.

[Roulettebeater]

Nimo

I am so tired after long working day - but I will be nice to you and try to explain you some facts related to roulette.

Actually on a physical wheel, you have a physical concept/ model. The concept is input+ delta = output.

Input and delta represents many variables such as launch point, ball speeds and wheel acceleration.

RNG has a different model, specifically there is a predefined model in it, a predefined model or concept is extremely hard to be broken, yes you can reverse engineer it but that’s a different story.

[The General]

The roulette wheel was created to provide numbers randomly.

True, but it doesn't.  Every wheel is biased to some degree.  Some can even be exploited.

[Nimo]

Nimo

I am so tired after long working day - but I will be nice to you and try to explain you some facts related to roulette.

Actually on a physical wheel, you have a physical concept/ model. The concept is input+ delta = output.

Input and delta represents many variables such as launch point, ball speeds and wheel acceleration.

RNG has a different model, specifically there is a predefined model in it, a predefined model or concept is extremely hard to be broken, yes you can reverse engineer it but that’s a different story.

Thank you for being nice.  I'm sorry that you had a long work day. 

I understand the physical and seed generated difference very well.  I was making a point about the double rhetoric.  AP players always say they are beating the wheel not the game.  Unless they take a baseball bat and take a swing at it, they are not beating the wheel at all, its a tool that just sits there waiting for itself to be spun, have a b
all thrown on, rotated a
And have the ball land in a pocket.  All the while placing chips on a layout to indicate where they think the ball will fall into a pocket.  Its the game they are trying to beat, not the wheel.  The wheel without the other components is like I said a dead weight.  I know I'm taking things to a literal level, however I feel its justified by the elitist attitude AP players present. 

[Steve]

even if AP (I'm talking about traditional AP methods like bias & VB) is theoretically superior to systems

Just theoretically? Or verifiable and clear?

as a practical matter in today's casinos it doesn't follow that it's a viable approach

Unfortunately you've got no idea and havent been paying attention.

Here are two articles on bias and VB published by casinonewsdaily.com:

You're referring to an online casino affiliate, where the webmaster has added pieces of second-hand information, to get traffic and promote his affiliate links. The information is vague and simplistic.

Now a cynic would probably say that this website is owned by a casino, but even if it isn't, casinos certainly endorse it because there are affiliate links everywhere.

The casino doesn't give a rats ass where clicks come from. Affiliate links are on porn sites too. Maybe casinos endorse them too.

isn't it in the casino's best interests to make sure that those conditions never actualize? It's just common sense.

Sure, it's called casino "game protection" and "countermeasures". The problem for casinos is it's nearly impossible to perfectly do everything they need to make AP too difficult or impractical. Especially roulette is particular vulnerable because it's far more difficult to ensure truly unpredictable spins than it is to achieve slightly accurate predictions.

Ironically, you make the argument we should believe AP is better because the casinos are afraid of it, and so they take steps to prevent it. Where's the logic in that?

As above, but that's only part of it. Unfortunately you've really got no idea.

I'll give you another example. To make roulette computers obsolete, the casino only needs to close bets before the wheel spins. Easy, huh? Why do most casinos allow late betting then? It's because many players like to bet late, and leaving betting open for longer means more average players bet, and the casino maximizes revenue.

Only IF a player is suspected of VB or computers do casinos close bets earlier. But a competent team avoids detection, and can win large sums while making it look like luck.

I could give many other examples but again you really dont know about this.

But a system player can make the same argument.

No because an AP can give clear evidence. Whereas a system player's evidence is a mess of bad understanding and incorrect logic, which is easily verified although they tend not to understand.... like for example, "changing systems mid-play gives me a better chance of winning, because no singe system will ever go bust". Sorry, Earth is round.

You conclude that no systems can work because the only systems you've seen don't work.

No, I'm saying most of the principles systems use don't work. Like waiting for 10 reds then betting black because it's "due". You can laugh at such bad logic, but you dont understand most systems are just as bad. But they are more complicated, so the player doesnt understand he's doing the same losing crap, just repackaged.

I cant be bothered responding to the rest of your message. Use whatever system you want, good luck, eventually you might understand what is being said.

I have no interest in turning anyone to AP. I couldnt give two shits about it, the same way I dont care if flat Earthers think Earth is flat. My interest here is explaining reality to help people avoid the classic mistakes, which is obviously not being understood by some. If you dont like AP who cares.

[Steve]

You say your teams are winning with your computers, yet you don't provide any proof.  I've only heard one thing about your computers and it wasn't a good thing.

1. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything here, except why particular approaches don't work. I dont care what you think you know about my technology and what I do.

2. You would do better by knowing for yourself, rather than believing everything you read. Anyone serious is aware of the bullshit said about my computers. And anyone serious finds out for themselves by seeing a demo on any wheel they want, and testing for themselves. Then the lies about the computers count for nothing.

[Steve]

Here is something you said in the mpr thread

There's also the potential of bias, which can appear as a slight data anomaly. Then if you cross reference it with anomalies related to dealer signature, the two pattern types can back each other up, which can be used to tell a player when a pattern is more likely to be legitimate, rather than coincidence.

How is that different from using two systems to corelate a play.  Its the exact same thing I do, but for AP play its different? 

It's different because if your system doesn't work, you wont make it better by pairing it with another system that doesnt work. In other words, 0 + 0 still = 0.

[Joe]

You're referring to an online casino affiliate, where the webmaster has added pieces of second-hand information, to get traffic and promote his affiliate links. The information is vague and simplistic.

Vague and simplistic? You've got to be kidding. Read all the articles in the section on Beating Roulette, it's amazingly detailed. Biased wheels and wheelhead speed, ball bouncing and switching, frets, pocket pads and wheel leveling, roulette computers, etc etc.

The casino doesn't give a rats ass where clicks come from. Affiliate links are on porn sites too. Maybe casinos endorse them too.

This is just flat out wrong. You have to apply to be an affiliate and get the benefit of links, and your site has to be vetted first. You should know that because you have affiliate links on your site.

Sure, it's called casino "game protection" and "countermeasures". The problem for casinos is it's nearly impossible to perfectly do everything they need to make AP too difficult or impractical. Especially roulette is particular vulnerable because it's far more difficult to ensure truly unpredictable spins than it is to achieve slightly accurate predictions.

Ok, fair enough, I'll give you that, and in fact the articles above imply that this is true. The issue is how much work does it involve to (a) find suitable wheels and conditions, and (b) actually make a consistent profit. You yourself have said that the hardest part is to remain undetected.

I'll give you another example. To make roulette computers obsolete, the casino only needs to close bets before the wheel spins. Easy, huh? Why do most casinos allow late betting then? It's because many players like to bet late, and leaving betting open for longer means more average players bet, and the casino maximizes revenue.

Online casinos don't allow betting after the ball is spun, and in B & M casinos they can take all kinds of counter-measures such as changing ball types and speed. Add to that the fact that VB doesn't work unless there is some bias in the first place. Sure it can be done, but how much skill and experience does it take? and all the time casinos are wising-up and opportunities are shrinking.

Only IF a player is suspected of VB or computers do casinos close bets earlier. But a competent team avoids detection, and can win large sums while making it look like luck.

And that's the other thing; you really need a team to succeed. On your site you imply that an individual can make good money without too much effort. That's just not realistic.

No, I'm saying most of the principles systems use don't work. Like waiting for 10 reds then betting black because it's "due". You can laugh at such bad logic, but you dont understand most systems are just as bad. But they are more complicated, so the player doesnt understand he's doing the same losing crap, just repackaged.

In general I agree, but not all systems can be dismissed.

I have no interest in turning anyone to AP.

Steve, this is nonsense. Of course you do, your website is all about trying to persuade people that AP is the only way and that systems are crap and don't work, because you're selling computers and AP based systems. It's just good marketing and nothing wrong with it; it's up to people to judge your words and do their own research. You may have good independent reasons for believing that systems are useless but they do represent a kind of competition in a way, and it makes sense to put a positive spin (excuse pun) on your wares and discredit the competition. It's perfectly obvious and you're insulting people's intelligence by denying it.

[Joe]

Yes you can.  For example you can run simulations on wheel bias.  You can also run simulations on the data points for VB.  There's also prove of concept. 

What a pointless exercise. Simulations of wheel bias and VB don't tell you anything about whether such opportunities actually exist and where to find them. 

[luckyfella]

Steve, this is nonsense. Of course you do, your website is all about trying to persuade people that AP is the only way and that systems are crap and don't work, because you're selling computers and AP based systems. It's just good marketing and nothing wrong with it; it's up to people to judge your words and do their own research. You may have good independent reasons for believing that systems are useless but they do represent a kind of competition in a way, and it makes sense to put a positive spin (excuse pun) on your wares and discredit the competition. It's perfectly obvious and you're insulting people's [normal honest folks] intelligence by denying it.

Excellent post(up among the best contributions) that you took the trouble to write.

[Joe]

Thanks luckyfella, If I carry on like this I'll probably be banned, but I don't care. I call a spade a spade and there are other roulette forums. ;-)

[Nimo]

It's different because if your system doesn't work, you wont make it better by pairing it with another system that doesnt work. In other words, 0 + 0 still = 0.

At least you said if, not doesn't outright, at least I read and comprehend every word, rather than gloss over, cherry pick and twist words to suit my agenda.  I don't share all I do on the forum, many others don't either so you don't know what systems I or others use. 

You still can't say combining two systems is not the same as combining two AP methods without knowing all the details.