Testing systems

[Joe]

When we are talking about live dealer, you can not exclude the ball movement, the speed the dealer is implementing on the ball/wheel. It's impossible to do that.

Not sure what you mean when you say it's impossible to exclude ball movement etc. Most roulette players at B &M casinos don't take any notice of the ball movements etc and certainly don't factor it into their play.

RNG... is a software based number generator. When we're talking about RNG, all rules are off. There you will be able to see things that at this moment you might consider impossible based on any theory/system you have in mind (probabilities, strategies, pattern breakers, whatever else is out there)

What sort of things do you mean? like seeing 100 reds in a row?

You never see 'impossible' things on an RNG that you wouldn't also see on a real wheel because they are both random number generators.

The fact that you can't exclude ball movement etc from a real wheel/dealer doesn't mean that those things change the pattern of results when looking at the spins. Both an electronic RNG and a real wheel are designed to generate random results which means that every number has an equal chance of hitting over time. If you look at the actual recorded results from a real wheel you'll see that this is the case. The ball movment, speed of wheel etc are irrelevant.

For someone using a typical mechanical system, and as long as the RNG is not crooked, they will get the same results using an RNG or real wheel because every number is equally likely to hit in both cases and so they will generate produce the same probabilities and patterns. 

If you don't believe this, try to identify some spins (a) from an unbiased wheel and (b) downloaded from random.org. I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference.  That's why it's ok to use RNG to test systems.

[The General]

try to identify some spins (a) from an unbiased wheel and (b) downloaded from random.org. I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference.  That's why it's ok to use RNG to test systems.

I can at a much higher rate than probability would dictate as being possible.  Just provide statistically relevant sample sizes.

And I'm willing to prove it.

[Joe]

General, what do you call a 'statistically relevant' sample size?

[Clf7]

Guys forget it, it is very simple.Normal Roulette(physical wheel) can be beaten with Steves Computers,Kimo Li's method
(ofc not as effective like steves)  or several other methods that maybe we dont know or we will find out.Until now nobody has beaten RNG roulette with any method(except Insider infos from algorithm designers),simple as that.Thats the reason Casino owners love rng roulette because there they can make extra profit(not forget greed is endless).

[ati]

IMO RX or random.org are nothing else but some number generators when it comes to testing systems. I mean..  the only difference between these softwares and you writting 10000 numbers on paper is that the softwares are faster.

Not that it matters, but I think there would be a difference between a wheel vs human or rng vs human. I think it would be very difficult for a human to write down 10,000 roulette numbers that are not biased in some way.

Btw I agree with Joe. There is no difference between rng a real wheel results. Test them yourselves if you think there is.
A file that contains 3981 continuous real wheel spins is shared in this thread.
A file that contains 30K casino rng spins is shared in this thread.
Just keep the first 3981 spins from the rng spins and compare the two. I did a few tests, the stats are almost identical. The funniest thing is that there are exactly 550 number cycles in both set of 3981 spins. 

[Joe]

Guys forget it, it is very simple.Normal Roulette(physical wheel) can be beaten with Steves Computers,Kimo Li's method
(ofc not as effective like steves)  or several other methods that maybe we dont know or we will find out.Until now nobody has beaten RNG roulette with any method(except Insider infos from algorithm designers),simple as that.Thats the reason Casino owners love rng roulette because there they can make extra profit(not forget greed is endless).

That's beside the point. I'm not denying that AP is the way to go, but if you're testing mechanical systems of the kind 'bet dozen 1 after it's gone missing for 10 spins' it doesn't make a whit of difference whether you use RNG or real spins. That is the subject and point at issue of the OP.

[Joe]

Just keep the first 3981 spins from the rng spins and compare the two. I did a few tests, the stats are almost identical. The funniest thing is that there are exactly 550 number cycles in both set of 3981 spins. 

I did a similar test using chi-square. No significant difference between the sets. TBH, I don't know what the general is talking about. He's an expert on bias wheels but I'm talking about unbiased wheels, unless he's saying that there's no such thing as an unbiased wheel. Maybe so, but it can't be the case that every wheel is biased to the degree that you can profit from it.

[Clf7]

That's beside the point. I'm not denying that AP is the way to go, but if you're testing mechanical systems of the kind 'bet dozen 1 after it's gone missing for 10 spins' it doesn't make a whit of difference whether you use RNG or real spins. That is the subject and point at issue of the OP.

Ah yes If that is the point then you are right, but those are not winning systems...I say that winning systems that Beat physical wheels cant beat RNG.

[Serendipity]

one question: airball is rng or real wheel?

thx

[Taotie]

The general needs 50,000 spins from a wheel & 50,000 spins from a rng to make it a statistically relevant sample.

He needs to compare two sets like this for 50,000 times to make his results a statistically relevant sample.

Who wants to post the first 50,000 spin samples?

C'mon guys, get involved. I'll wait until everyone has posted a combined 49,999 samples of 50,000 for the general, then I'll post the final number 50,000, 50,000 spin sample.

[Herby]

The general needs 50,000 spins

On a 3 standard deviation level it could be possible to have positive results up to ~ 50,000 spins.
The gifted of you can do the calculation. 

[The General]

I did a similar test using chi-square. No significant difference between the sets. TBH, I don't know what the general is talking about. He's an expert on bias wheels but I'm talking about unbiased wheels, unless he's saying that there's no such thing as an unbiased wheel. Maybe so, but it can't be the case that every wheel is biased to the degree that you can profit from it.

Show me 25k or 50k from a live wheel and put the data next to an rng wheel.  Even if you think that the live wheel is random.

Even on what you consider a random wheel there are differences in how the data is distributed and the chi squares drifts to far away from the norm.  In short, every live wheel is biased to some degree.

[Joe]

Ok general, show us your magic. 

I've attached 3 spin files just to make it a bit more interesting. There are 50k spins in each. One contains actual spins from a wheel and the other two are RNG : one from random.org and the other are generated from a good quality software RNG.

Of course there is a 33.3% you'll identify the actuals file just by chance, so you should show using stats why you have chosen it.

You get extra credit if you can differentiate the RNG spins. 

[The General]

Ok general, show us your magic. 

I've attached 3 spin files just to make it a bit more interesting. There are 50k spins in each. One contains actual spins from a wheel and the other two are RNG : one from random.org and the other are generated from a good quality software RNG.

Of course there is a 33.3% you'll identify the actuals file just by chance, so you should show using stats why you have chosen it.

You get extra credit if you can differentiate the RNG spins. 

Before I start, I must ask...did you collect these spins yourself or are you relying on one of the German casino streams?
If you're using the German online data banks then you're not just looking at one specific wheel, but several different wheels that have been rotated in and out of a specific location.

Very few people have access to significantly large spin samples segregated by wheels, and unfortunately there aren't any available online.

[Joe]

Before I start, I must ask...did you collect these spins yourself or are you relying on one of the German casino streams?

Neither, but they are from a reliable source and definitely from just one table.