Live dealer data needed.

mr.ore · Oct 30, 06:01 AM 2011

I would like to ask forum members to help me. I would like a data with detailed information about another part of a game - who was a dealer, which wheel was that (only if it is sure that wheel has not been changed/maintained during obvservations of spins). I want to found out if there is some underlying rule that would differentiate live game from rng, but I need a lot of data for this for algorithms to find it and avoid random bias. The aim is to find Advantage-play method which could found some specifics for conrete dealers or wheel and adapt to it (hopefully fast enough to make it a real advantage).

data should be in this format

WHEEL <give some identifier to a concrete wheel you tracked>, <layout>, <casino-name>
DEALER <give some number to a dealer>, <name of a dealer (not necessary)>
<number>
<number>
<number>
...

<layout> := european|american

example:

WHEEL 1, european, Wiesbaden
DEALER 1, Kate
13
5
7
0
13
21
14
13
22
0
dealer 2, Pam
14
19
26
17
0
8
DEALER 1, Kate
9
19
18
17
22
DEALER 3, Lucy
19
0
25
5
11

and so on

We need good data in order to move on. Just testing random thought of methods that seems to temporarily work leads to nowhere. There must be SOME reason why the method works, otherwise it is probably not worth testing at all.

mr.ore · Oct 30, 12:05 PM 2011

also please add if wheel was spining clockwise (=C) or anticlockwise (=A) for each spins

WHEEL 1, european, Wiesbaden
DEALER 1, Kate
13 C
5 C
7 A
...

vundarosa · Oct 30, 12:54 PM 2011

mr.ore

i guess about a 100spins batch should do, not?!

vundarosa

mr.ore · Oct 30, 02:20 PM 2011

Any data is useful, but we would need about 10000 spins I think, but if you have 100 spins, please post them anyway. If everyone contributes a little, we would get more data to analyze.

ego · Nov 02, 08:20 AM 2011

I have a Huxley wheel at home and could send you some data / spin the wheel.
But i apoliges to saying this that i don't understand your topic and what you are looking for.

Release is not random and has a strong bias in casinos - but does not effect the outcome or distance as long there is no strong tilt - one pin game.
Even if i know how you could apply a real physic with a wheel signature before the ball is spun it does not work with out knowing how to take andvantage of the tilt.
We are talking about most 2 or 3 pin game and would at best narrow down sectors of groups with in a range of 18 pockets to reduce the house edge.

There is so many factors missing with this topic.

ego · Nov 02, 08:26 AM 2011

Quote from: ego on Nov 02, 08:20 AM 2011
I have a Huxley wheel at home and could send you some data / spin the wheel.
But i apoliges to saying this that i don't understand your topic and what you are looking for.

Release is not random and has a strong bias in casinos - but does not effect the outcome or distance as long there is no strong tilt - one pin game.
Even if i know how you could apply a real physic with a wheel signature before the ball is spun it does not work with out knowing how to take andvantage of the tilt.
We are talking about most 2 or 3 pin game and would at best narrow down sectors of groups with in a range of 18 pockets to reduce the house edge.

There is so many factors missing with this topic.

Release number: Zero
Dealer: Me
Ball: 18 mm Ivorine
Tilt: 2 pin game

Is that what you are looking for or any other conditions ??

MadMax · Nov 02, 10:03 AM 2011

Ok, if small samples will also bring you forward, here is my session I played this afternoon so far.
If it helps, I can post all my results this way, cause I track the numbers anyway, so itÂ´s no effort for me.

[reveal]Playtech live wheel/21nova      Roulette1    Europ.Roulette

5   a   Nikola
22   c
11   a
20   c
26   a
0   c
15   a
35   c
10   a
19   c
10   a
17   c
11   a
32   c
7   a
30   c
13   a
2   c
4   a
28   c
13   a
11   c
29   a

32   c   Rasa
18   a
26   c
31   a
13   c
25   a
26   c
2   a
18   c
16   a
10   c
15   a
17   c
27   a
27   c
27   a
25   c
7   a
27   c
4   a
20   c
23   a
20   c
2   a
30   c
20   a
24   c
19   a
12   c
36   a
12   c
13   a
22   c
3   a

32   c   Zenija
2   a
22   c
8   a
22   c
22   a
27   c
3   a
17   c
1   a
30   c
33   a
23   c
15   a
29   c
12   a
35   c
7   a
32   c
17   a
6   c
19   a
36   c
18   a
16   c
26   a
2   c
4   a
13   c
29   a
27   c
12   a
11   c
8   a

0   c   Diana
0   a
22   c
22   a
30   c
11   a
13   c
33   a
29   c
13   a
17   c
26   a
6   c
22   a
25   c
6   a
20   c
29   a
19   c
15   a
27   c
13   a
16   c
[/reveal]

If you would like another formation of the numbers, just let me know!
Regards

iggiv · Nov 02, 01:05 PM 2011

Quote from: ego on Nov 02, 08:20 AM 2011
I have a Huxley wheel at home and could send you some data / spin the wheel.
But i apoliges to saying this that i don't understand your topic and what you are looking for.

Release is not random and has a strong bias in casinos - but does not effect the outcome or distance as long there is no strong tilt - one pin game.
Even if i know how you could apply a real physic with a wheel signature before the ball is spun it does not work with out knowing how to take andvantage of the tilt.
We are talking about most 2 or 3 pin game and would at best narrow down sectors of groups with in a range of 18 pockets to reduce the house edge.

There is so many factors missing with this topic.

mr.ore · Nov 02, 01:25 PM 2011

Thanks much, I really appreciate it and will definitely look at it on a weekend. The fact is that I believe that there might be some hidden connection between those data and game results, which could be discovered somehow, but I don't know much about the physics of roulette. Are there some good topics around explaining basics?

BTW I selected the format of data in a way that is still SIMPLE TO RECORD, but give at least SOME MORE physical information, it is not that it is really going to be useful, but it MIGHT be useful. I don't really know if it is possible to construct working hidden markov model from such small amounts of data (I'm not talking about number of spins but about information which is recorded for each spin), but it would be nice to have a system that could use as little as possible physical data and still get ANY advanage out of that.

If I downloaded spins from wiesbaden and played a system and then the set ended and RNG kicked in, I could clearly feel and see from the graph (and game) that something has changed, so I have to look into it.

In any way we need a good testing data in general, so if you can do it, just do it, and of course if you can add more information which can be written as a text input, then do it also.

Thanks MadMax for your input, hope it will be useful

ego · Nov 02, 10:44 PM 2011

QuoteThe fact is that I believe that there might be some hidden connection between those data and game results, which could be discovered somehow, but I don't know much about the physics of roulette. Are there some good topics around explaining basics?

First we note if there is a right or left handed dealer.
What size the ball have (small ball 18 mm and large ball 20 mm).
Track one direction seperated from the other (clockwise or anti-clockwise).
Note what kind of air pressuer you have.
Note if the wheel is frequent hit 1,2 or 3 vertical deflectors.
Dealers name and name of casino.

That would be the old fachion way to track for a wheel signature.
One would state that if 1 vertical deflector hit 7 times out of 10 you would have a valid situation.
Then you could use release number and outcome to get distance witch would narrow down to a smaller area to aim for.
With today's wheels and conditions it does not work as it is like winning the lottery finding a wheel where the ball strike one vertical deflector 7 times out of 10.
One more issue is that the rotor has different speeds.

Well i can see pepole here write about a dealer to create a winning spin - its like winning on on lottery !!! - but there is exeptions.
I will just mention some basic.

1. First the dealer have to spin the ball with the same strenght/fource - spin after spin - even if he or she does - the ball time traveling will be different from start to end - even if the ball make around 18 19 20 turnarounds - witch follow us to point two.

2. The rotor position will change its place at the end of the spin and have variation witch position it will have - even if the dealer continus puch rotor with same fource - as point 1 time will be different with one extra or one less turnaround to end and time will have its own variation even if all spindevelopment was 19 turnarounds.

3. Even if that is the case, you can take andvantage out of a dealers behavior using conter measuring points to narrow down the spindevelopment to become with a bias behavior and norrow down certan numbers hitting - but then again it would depend on point 4.

4. If there is no drop zone and ball behave chaotic hitting all kind of deflectors with even distribution - there would be no chanche at all to narrow down a dealers spin behaveior to achive to find a signature of some kind.

It is a myth to belive that a dealer by him self can hit sectors or favorite certan numbers - the wheel is more complex then that.

Drazen · Nov 03, 05:30 AM 2011

Quote from: ego on Nov 02, 10:44 PM 2011

It is a myth to belive that a dealer by him self can hit sectors or favorite certan numbers - the wheel is more complex then that.

This is wrong. Experienced and skilled dealer can hit sector which he wants.

Few days ago i was playing in fun mode at dublinbet. There was no one at the table playing or standing in close to the tables. As the table on which i was playing, so as the other one. Only two of the dealers with no one else there. They were chatting and laughing in very relaxed mood. Suddenly dealer at the table i was playing made something very strange to me, because i have seen that for the first time. What happened? She (Renata) spun the ball as usual, and when bets closed, 1-2 rotations before the ball will land, she put her point-finger on the number 13 on the board. The number 27 came out. First neighbour to the 13. I was amazed, and momentarely told this to my friend F_LAT_INO. He explained that this is nothing strange. Very familiar to him from his career as a delaer. What is this about? When there is no one playing or standing at the table, sometimes dealers are betting for a drink beetwen themselfs who will spun the closest number...

And yes i know that from a man who can do that, that experineced dealers can hit number which they want, and not to tell about hitting specified sectors i.e 5-10 numbers. It is a joke to them.

And didn't you heard that delaers can have their own "players"?

Regards

Drazen

Drazen · Nov 03, 05:52 AM 2011

So if you applyed for a job as a dealer and after you passed your training, if you can't hit i.e. 7/10 times sector which they ask at that moment, it is very unlikely for you to get that job. Casino will look for another dealer.. So much about that myth.

Regards

Drazen

MadMax · Nov 03, 02:21 PM 2011

Hi Mr.Ore!
A few more spins for your collection!

Yesterday evening

[reveal]Playtech live wheel/21nova      Table1   Europ.Roulette      02.11.11

23   a   Diana
27   c
21   a
35   c
2   a
13   c
16   a
29   c
13   a
26   c
0   a
13   c
27   a
5   c
15   a
4   c
0   a
35   c
7   a
7   c
12   a
30   c
20   a

25   c   Lelde
1   a
36   c
35   a
35   c
20   a
29   c
8   a
30   c
10   a
0   c
35   a
28   c
24   a
4   c
8   a
10   c
19   a
31   c
26   a
1   c
17   a
0   c
0   a
12   c
18   a
30   c
23   a
1   c
25   a
33   c

36   a   Zenija
31   c
30   a
22   c
32   a
28   c
31   a
12   c
10   a
9   c
4   a
3   c
18   a
4   c
28   a
0   c
16   a
30   c
27   a
36   c
32   a
27   c
14   a
25   c
35   a
29   c
18   a
22   c
34   a
2   c
9   a
30   c
16   a
31   c
28   a

14   c   ----
21   a   Olga
33   c   Change somewhere
20   a   here
23   c   ----

30   a
10   c
2   a
0   c
13   a
20   c
12   a
20   c
2   a
35   c
17   a
21   c
3   a
32   c
3   a
23   c
28   a
36   c
17   a
17   c
16   a
26   c
9   a
11   c
24   a
21   c
21   a

20   c   Julija
8   a
9   c
4   a
21   c
18   a
0   c
30   a
10   c
21   a
19   c
32   a
10   c
1   a
23   c
6   a
11   c
10   a
14   c
22   a
14   c
9   a
22   c
13   a
4   c
34   a
13   c
22   a
5   c
33   a
22   c
26   a
33   c
23   a
8   c

23   a   Lelde
20   c
14   a
2   c
22   a
11   c
30   a
6   c
30   a
2   c
29   a
8   c
36   a
29   c
6   a
30   c
23   a
28   c
23   a
25   c
6   a
36   c
16   a
24   c
36   a
14   c
32   a
26   c
8   a
2   c
29   a
32   c
18   a
[/reveal]

this morning

[reveal]Playtech live wheel/21nova      Table2   Europ.Roulette      03.11.11

8   a   Nellija
33   c
23   a
12   c
29   a
7   c
13   a
6   c
6   a
32   c
7   a
35   c
29   a
13   c
7   a
5   c
35   a
25   c
25   a
31   c
31   a
13   c
4   a
0   c
28   a
22   c
19   a
15   c
4   a
35   c
34   a
9   c
4   a
31   c
22   a

26   c   Natalija
26   a
0   c
19   a
20   c
8   a
27   c
2   a
15   c
12   a
25   c
14   a
15   c
24   a
11   c
24   a
22   c
15   a
8   c
12   a
23   c
7   a
27   c
17   a
16   c
15   a
33   c
34   a
29   c
22   a
0   c
36   a
36   c

1   a   Keita
14   c
27   a
0   c
13   a
5   c
11   a
11   c
14   a
23   c
19   a
17   c
30   a
27   c
29   a
30   c
26   a
10   c
22   a
17   c
17   a
13   c
35   a
13   c
30   a
12   c
13   a
28   c
2   a
19   c
23   a

22   c   Rudolfs
32   a
7   c
29   a
7   c
5   a
3   c
15   a
34   c
5   a
13   c
20   a
15   c
[/reveal]

and this evening

[reveal]Playtech live wheel/21nova      Table1   Europ.Roulette      03.11.11

31   a   Sandra
27   c
18   a
15   c
9   a
4   c
12   a
26   c
3   a

36   c   Gunta
29   a
26   c
20   a
11   c
18   a
15   c
19   a
0   c
33   a
3   c
2   a
31   c
10   a
33   c
16   a
9   c
30   a
5   c
25   a
13   c
24   a
27   c
24   a
1   c
7   a
27   c
32   a
31   c
9   a

25   c   Victoria
19   a
27   c
13   a
30   c
0   a
14   c
5   a
7   c
32   a
13   c
25   a
17   c
32   a
22   c
8   a
12   c
36   a
11   c
7   a
31   c
29   a
18   c
5   a
31   c
2   a
27   c
10   a
8   c
3   a
8   c
15   a
20   c

15   a   Emilija
22   c
30   a
16   c
31   a
19   c
5   a
31   c
28   a
32   c
15   a
31   c
27   a
19   c
32   a
33   c
35   a
11   c
0   a
29   c
16   a
13   c
31   a
30   c
30   a
27   c
16   a
12   c
10   a
15   c

9   a   Lelde
19   c
34   a
8   c
7   a
18   c
5   a
0   c
13   a
11   c
[/reveal]

mr.ore · Nov 03, 03:51 PM 2011

Thanks

iggiv · Nov 03, 07:36 PM 2011

Quote from: drazen_cro on Nov 03, 05:30 AM 2011
This is wrong. Experienced and skilled dealer can hit sector which he wants.

Few days ago i was playing in fun mode at dublinbet. There was no one at the table playing or standing in close to the tables. As the table on which i was playing, so as the other one. Only two of the dealers with no one else there. They were chatting and laughing in very relaxed mood. Suddenly dealer at the table i was playing made something very strange to me, because i have seen that for the first time. What happened? She (Renata) spun the ball as usual, and when bets closed, 1-2 rotations before the ball will land, she put her point-finger on the number 13 on the board. The number 27 came out. First neighbour to the 13. I was amazed, and momentarely told this to my friend F_LAT_INO. He explained that this is nothing strange. Very familiar to him from his career as a delaer. What is this about? When there is no one playing or standing at the table, sometimes dealers are betting for a drink beetwen themselfs who will spun the closest number...

And yes i know that from a man who can do that, that experineced dealers can hit number which they want, and not to tell about hitting specified sectors i.e 5-10 numbers. It is a joke to them.

And didn't you heard that delaers can have their own "players"?

Regards

Drazen

oh man that's quite a story!

yes, i believe it. They can do it.

News:

Live dealer data needed.